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Author Topic: New additions recently added  (Read 2750 times)

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Offline Adrian W

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New additions recently added
« on: November 29, 2012, 08:08:37 am »

Opeimia AE As. Rome, 169-158 BC. Laureate bust of Janus; mark of value above / Prow right; mark of value before; OPEIMI ligate above; ROMA in ex. Crawford 188/1 OPEIMI. 25.21g, 33mm, 10h.

Scarce. Very Good - Fine.



Anonymous Æ As. Rome, 91 BC. Head of Janus / Prow right, L.P.D.A.P (Lege Papiria de Assis Pondere) above. Crawford 338/1; Sydenham 678. 14.03g, 30mm, 7h.
Scarce. Very Good.

The Lex Papira enacted in this year reduced the weight standard of bronze coinage to the semuncial level.



Anonymous AE As. Uncertain Italian mint, 212-195 BC. Head of Janus bug eyed / Prow right; I in field; ROMA in ex. Crawford 106/B1 Anonymous bug-eyed. 32.9g, 34mm, 12h.


Fine.
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4to2CentBCphilia

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Re: New additions from the world famous Andrew MCCabe collection
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2012, 10:01:58 am »
I very much like the Opeimia. Good grab.

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: New additions (Republican bronzes)
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 12:00:50 pm »
Inevitably, the visually least attractive coin is the most historically important and rare! This is in fact what the game is all about.

The centre coin is an As of the Lex Papiria series, inscribed L.P.D.A.P. From the Brill dictionary: Lex Papiria de Assis Pondere: Reduction stage of bronze money introduced in 91 BC based on the lex Papiria (Plin. HN 33,46; RRC, p. 77; 596), according to which the as was reduced to 1/24 of the Roman pound (Libra [1]) = 13,64 g [1]. A part of these asses with the head of Ianus on the obverse show the letters L·P·D·A·P on the reverse above the prora (ship's bow), possibly for the words lege Papiria de assis pondere (RRC 338/1; p. 611).

The coin is much better preserved than the photo suggests, and is an encrusted near-VF for wear. So it may benefit from some expert cleaning (or it may not, I've never successfully cleaned an ancient coin). The reverse and obverse are complete and centred, with the letters LPDAP quite clear, and for that reason I paid quite a lot for it (many multiples what Adrian paid for it). So, it's a superb addition, despite not being photogenic.

Pliny book 33 is all about metals, and contains various commentaries on coinage, most which have proved over time incorrect, but in this case, the inscription on the coin proves him right. Here is the relevant chapter:

notae argenti fuere bigae atque quadrigae; inde bigati quadrigatique dicti. mox lege Papiria semunciarii asses facti. Livius Drusus in tribunatu plebei octavam partem aeris argento miscuit. is, qui nunc victoriatus appellatur, lege Clodia percussus est; antea enim hic nummus ex Illyrico advectus mercis loco habebatur. est autem signatus Victoria, et inde nomen.

Here is a quadrans from the series: unusually, the value mark on the reverse is in the form of three small dots over the lettering, which is a form of play or punning by the die-engraver, as the value mark has two uses at the same time, since it can also be read as the points between the letters.



These coins with LPDAP are all quite rare, some of them very rare indeed.

=====================================================

The second most attractive coin in the group, the one at bottom, also has a story to tell. It looks like an anonymous bronze As of RRC 56, but it is not. In fact it is an unpublished variant of the Staff and Club series which I chatted about on list a few days ago. Here is what I have to say about it:

Mint: Etruria. Second Punic war. Related to RRC 106 staff and club. Obverses are in high relief with wide staring eyes and thick hairlines in Etruscan style. Reverses are concave, on thick dumpy flans, and often flat struck at edges. Prows have line-bounded prowstems, square deck structures, and a prominent line to the left of the deck structure. The keel lines are widely spaced at left and converge into prominent rostrum tridens. All denominations As through Uncia are known. The weight standard is about 35 grams.

This is an anonymous issue produced in large volumes, characterized by obverse heads with large bulging eyes and very thick and wavy hairlines with every strand clearly distinguished. Due to the clarity with which the hair is engraved and the prominence of the eyes, even very worn specimens are easily distinguished. The reverse prow always has three converging lines at keel level, bounded usually but not always by a line border at left. On clear specimens one can see that the lower keel line forms the lower prong of the rostrum tridens, whilst the upper two lines converge into the middle prong; the upper prong being supplied by a separate curve that extends from the prowstem. There is a flat-topped deck structure sitting on a slightly angled structure (fighting platform?). There may be a line sloping down to the right between the deck structure and the prowstem, but this is often missing. On the left of the deck structure there is always a long horizontal line, which is likely just the usual left-hand extension of the deck structure rather than being intended as a staff. All the lines of the reverse are very thick and prominent, in a similar manner to the obverse hairlines. Prows have sometimes a defined boundary at their left hand side, separated from the left hand border of the coin.

A special feature of this coinage is the use of apparently convex reverse dies, as there is a notable concave impression on the reverse side of many coins, and a corresponding though less noticeable convex obverse shape. Coins which are weakly struck often have a completely flat unstruck area of flan at the reverse border, whilst the centre of the reverse is still concave. This shows that the flans were flat and the dies convex. Here is a quadrans from the series that matches Adrian's new As in style; the concave reverse surface is very evident:



Published examples include:
(1) RRC pl.XI,7 As, BM.56.2.6, 36.02g
(2) RRC pl.XI,10  Semis, Citta Ducale hoard
(3) RRC pl.XI,12 Triens, BM.56.4.9, 10.17g

The relationship between this group RRC 106 staff and club is shown by various obverse style matches, indicating that the same die-cutters or stylistic guidelines were used as for RRC 106. The RRC 106 staff and club Asses have very different reverse design details, but there are stylistic similarities in their obverses, for example broad obverse head with larger staring eyes. Thus the relationship with RRC 106 staff and club is shown by obverse styles that clearly relate to coins of this type, with wide-open bulging eyes and hair style in thick wavy lines.

This coincidence of obverse die-cutting style between RRC 106 and these coins – which is to be found on all denominations – may not, of course, indicate the same mint (the engravers may have travelled, or the portrait style may be historically traditional to Etruria), but they do indicate a certain link. These coins can thus be placed in Etruria. Existing hoard reports, without illustrations, will often have categorised these as RRC 56, so it would worthwhile to re-examine RRCH 97 from Citta Ducale at the border of Latium and Etruria, which is reported as having seven bronzes of the staff series along with eight other signed pieces and 70 anonymous sextantal bronzes. Perhaps many of the latter are anonymous pieces of this style. It is notable and unsurprising that the Semis of this design illustrated as an example of RRC 56 by CrawfordRRC pl.XI,10 – indeed comes from the Citta Ducale hoard.

=======================================

The third coin is the Opeimia As. It is, as mentioned by the previous poster, attractive.

=======================================

This sort of information is what Republican bronzes are all about. This is it. It's not about attractiveness. It's about history and new discoveries.

There are plenty other coins available at the vendor where these three came from (i.e. ex-McCabe-collection coins are readily and inexpensively available) including another much rarer denomination LPDAP type. Virtually every one could justify a write-up as lengthy as this.

But it's not about attractiveness, and to seek out nice-looking Republican bronzes sort of misses the point. It's about the stuff I write above, rarity, history, new discoveries. This is the game.

Please join me in collecting these coin types.

4to2CentBCphilia

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Re: New additions (Republican bronzes)
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 12:43:14 pm »
Inevitably, the visually least attractive coin is the most historically important and rare! This is in fact what the game is all about.

etc. etc. etc.
=======================================

The third coin is the Opeimia As. It is, as mentioned by the previous poster, attractive.

=======================================

This sort of information is what Republican bronzes are all about. This is it. It's not about attractiveness. It's about history and new discoveries.

etc. etc. etc.

But it's not about attractiveness, and to seek out nice-looking Republican bronzes sort of misses the point. It's about the stuff I write above, rarity, history, new discoveries. This is the game.

Please join me in collecting these coin types.


Thanks for turning a compliment for Adrian into a backhanded insult. You must be fun at cocktail parties.


Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: New additions (Republican bronzes)
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 01:06:01 pm »

Thanks for turning a compliment for Adrian into a backhanded insult. You must be fun at cocktail parties.



I have/had no idea what I wrote could be read as anything except praise for Adrian for some wise choices. This is what Roman Republican bronzes are all about. But, a feature of RR bronzes is that the most attractive coins are inevitably the most common (about which the most is already known). The Opeimia is indeed attractive, but I don't have a write up on it, and so I deliberately focused on the less attractive two coins to add some value to them as it were. I could do a write up on the Opeimia gens, but I thought the other coins more interesting.

I went to a lot of effort, in praise of Adrian's purchases, in writing a very lengthy explanation of the two most interesting (and less attractive coins). I searched the internet to get the correct references to Pliny, and I cut, edited and pasted extracts from other documents. I delayed my dinner whilst doing so. I went to this effort because I think Adrian is to be complimented for choosing some very rare and interesting coins, and so I put some work into it, to provide some extra value as it were.

So be it. My words and effort were not read as intended. But my message stands: the game, as I call it in RR bronzes, is finding the historical and numismatic points of interest, not in their attractiveness. That's what its about. They are not cocktail party conversation pieces, and probably I wouldn't be very much welcome if that's what I chatted about at a party. They are very interesting coins.

4to2CentBCphilia

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Re: New additions (Republican bronzes)
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 01:32:40 pm »

Thanks for turning a compliment for Adrian into a backhanded insult. You must be fun at cocktail parties.



I have/had no idea what I wrote could be read as anything except praise for Adrian for some wise choices. This is what Roman Republican bronzes are all about. But, a feature of RR bronzes is that the most attractive coins are inevitably the most common (about which the most is already known). The Opeimia is indeed attractive, but I don't have a write up on it, and so I deliberately focused on the less attractive two coins to add some value to them as it were. I could do a write up on the Opeimia gens, but I thought the other coins more interesting.

I went to a lot of effort, in praise of Adrian's purchases, in writing a very lengthy explanation of the two most interesting (and less attractive coins). I searched the internet to get the correct references to Pliny, and I cut, edited and pasted extracts from other documents. I delayed my dinner whilst doing so. I went to this effort because I think Adrian is to be complimented for choosing some very rare and interesting coins, and so I put some work into it, to provide some extra value as it were.

So be it. My words and effort were not read as intended. But my message stands: the game, as I call it in RR bronzes, is finding the historical and numismatic points of interest, not in their attractiveness. That's what its about. They are not cocktail party conversation pieces, and probably I wouldn't be very much welcome if that's what I chatted about at a party. They are very interesting coins.


And I am using up my lunchtime replying to you.

Here is the insult, or haughtiness, or whatever word you would like to call it.

"The third coin is the Opeimia As. It is, as mentioned by the previous poster, attractive.

=======================================

This sort of information is what Republican bronzes are all about. This is it. It's not about attractiveness. It's about history and new discoveries"



Andrew, this is your opinion. You have made it abundantly clear that you are a sophisticated collector. A rare slug supercedes an attractive coin that tittilates the masses. I get it. It has been pummeled into my head..........repeatedly. Why you have to take this path so often, I do not know. But it is pedantic and condescending...........I guess I found a couple more words to describe it.

I will leave it at that. I will also leave this up for a couple hrs to ensure you get to see it, and then I am closing my account here. You have single handedly turned me off to the social context of this Forum.

Mark




Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: New additions (Republican bronzes)
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 01:43:14 pm »
Yes I realise my words were badly chosen. Yes I by saying the Opeimia was attractive, I know it was back-handed insult to the coin. I am sorry. OK, in penance, here's some interesting information on Opeimia, to bring all three coins up to a level: I have a nice story, not about the Opeimia of 170BC, but his son who struck in 131BC (possibly his grandson, but the son seems more likely).

The Opeimia first came to historical notice in the Samnite wars, 343 to 304 BC. Adrian's coin was struck by an unknown Opeimia in the period 170 to 160 BC, but we know a lot more about his likely son(s).

Lucius Opeimius, who struck RRC 253, in about 131 BC, was an aristocratic praetor who later suppressed the revolt of Fregella, in 125 BC. As consul in 121 BC, he hunted Gaius Gracchus with personal animosity, to his destruction. He was later himself condemned for receiving Jugurtha's bribes, and died, hated and insulted, a poverty-struck exile, at Dyrrhachium. There were several gradations of banishment, and that of Opeimius must have been the deportatio since he appears to have forfeited his property, and the rights patria potestas; but even the exsilium relegatio (which was not followed by loss of citizenship or property), was looked upon as a bitter punishment, since it separated the exile from all he held most dear, with the prospect of a lingering life and dismal death. Cicero, however, considered that for offenders, exsilium was rather a means of avoiding punishment than a chastening infliction (Cicero's oration Pro Caecina).



I try to do my best. I do repeatedly push ugly coins because there's lots to be learnt in them. I'll probably keep pushing ugly coins. My words don't always come out right and I realise I probably often sound condescending, haughty and pedantic. You are right.

I'll go quiet on RR bronzes for a while I guess. My efforts to promote interest in them are evidently having the opposite effect. Adrian's three coins nevertheless remain great choices.

4to2CentBCphilia

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Re: New additions (Republican bronzes)
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 02:13:11 pm »
Yes I realise my words were badly chosen. Yes I by saying the Opeimia was attractive, I know it was back-handed insult to the coin. I am sorry. OK, in penance, here's some interesting information on Opeimia, to bring all three coins up to a level: I have a nice story, not about the Opeimia of 170BC, but his son who struck in 131BC (possibly his grandson, but the son seems more likely).

The Opeimia first came to historical notice in the Samnite wars, 343 to 304 BC. Adrian's coin was struck by an unknown Opeimia in the period 170 to 160 BC, but we know a lot more about his likely son(s).

Lucius Opeimius, who struck RRC 253, in about 131 BC, was an aristocratic praetor who later suppressed the revolt of Fregella, in 125 BC. As consul in 121 BC, he hunted Gaius Gracchus with personal animosity, to his destruction. He was later himself condemned for receiving Jugurtha's bribes, and died, hated and insulted, a poverty-struck exile, at Dyrrhachium. There were several gradations of banishment, and that of Opeimius must have been the deportatio since he appears to have forfeited his property, and the rights patria potestas; but even the exsilium relegatio (which was not followed by loss of citizenship or property), was looked upon as a bitter punishment, since it separated the exile from all he held most dear, with the prospect of a lingering life and dismal death. Cicero, however, considered that for offenders, exsilium was rather a means of avoiding punishment than a chastening infliction (Cicero's oration Pro Caecina).



I try to do my best. I do repeatedly push ugly coins because there's lots to be learnt in them. I'll probably keep pushing ugly coins. My words don't always come out right and I realise I probably often sound condescending, haughty and pedantic. You are right.

I'll go quiet on RR bronzes for a while I guess. My efforts to promote interest in them are evidently having the opposite effect. Adrian's three coins nevertheless remain great choices.

Ummm. OK. I wasn't expecting a mea culpa. Quite noble.


Offline labienus

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Re: New additions from the world famous Andrew MCCabe collection
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 02:18:53 pm »
Fascinating, absurd or both .... Andrew pedantic ??????? He has both an extremily developped knowledge of RR coins and he is passionate : those are his credentials, nothing else. All the remaining is some kind of settling I don't know which kind of accounts.
Please, Andrew, don't feel obliged to stop even on a temporary basis.
Best
Pierre

4to2CentBCphilia

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Re: New additions from the world famous Andrew MCCabe collection
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 03:01:04 pm »
Too late Pierre.
We chose pistols at dawn and fortunately both mis-fired. We better explained ourselves via PM.

And yes, Andrews passion shines thru.

Mark

Offline Adrian W

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Re: New additions recently added
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 04:58:36 pm »
Wow I thought this would be a fun thread and other people would find it interesting.I know Andrew can come off sometimes being a bit and I hate to say it Anal,however he is forgiven by me for being that way as he is an engineer,I have dealt with a lot of engineer types in my business and they are all that way.No offence to Andy but I appreciate what he has to say and by adding these coins and his name here he did what I wanted him to do.

That was "Tell us the story " please

Thats exactly what he did,if I could I would buy all his coins but thats not reasonable.I like the rarity but also like decent coins as in everything I have ever collected its not always about the rarity but the condition that always comes first it seems.

I recently had a 1560 John Foxe Book of Martys almost mint condition missing one plate and a few pages out of 2000 with a great binding I had it up for sale and people wanted me to part pieces out to them to help complete their volumes I refused to do so.Or did not want to give me anything for it.In 20 years of collecting such books I have never seen one this nice.I did sell it and made some money on it and the profit went into coins.

So I am fine with what Andy says and so no offense taken and none meant.

Though I think people sometimes on this board come across as being on here as like talking to God and take it way tooooo seriously.

Adrian
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