Would these be good to clean up if you were somewhat newbish?

[Lord Geoff]

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=1342&pos=11

I'm looking mainly at the 10 coin lots for $25-27.  These would be cleanable correct?  I will have a small amount of experience before starting on them.

Looking for Christmas presents

Thanks
Geoff

[Salem Alshdaifat]

to learn cleaning I will recommend this lot
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?param=59413q00.jpg&vpar=1342&zpg=71458&fld=https://www.forumancientcoins.com/Coins2/

more coins and more training
best.
Salem Alshdaifat

[HELEN S]

  that will make a great christmas present and get you used to the feel and maybe you can start learning to id them
 its a great way to start GOOD LUCK   

[areich]

The ones you were talking about cannot really be cleaned much further (at least those in the picture).

[Lord Geoff]

OK I was concerned about that.  It seems like everything is too cleaned or uncleanable

I will see if maybe we can combine some gifts to get the bigger lot.

[areich]

The golden days are long over. The golden days are always in the past but you simply can't get decent, truly uncleaned coins that will clean up well and don't cost more than they would cost cleaned. Forget ever finding anything of any value. Coin cleaning is a hobby and hobbies cost money. You have to actually enjoy the cleaning.

[Andrew McCabe]

OK I was concerned about that.  It seems like everything is too cleaned or uncleanable

I will see if maybe we can combine some gifts to get the bigger lot.

The main source countries in the Balkans and mid-east seem to have thousands of low-paid balkan elves who can quickly clean every potentially interesting coin, to the point where a clever elf can determine its identity, condition and economic value. Further cleaning may not improve them (they can be made worse). The only coins they don't try to clean are worn/corroded slugs, with nothing underneath, that also won't benefit from cleaning.

I suspect the reasons for seeking uncleaned coins, is because identifying coins is fun, cleaning coins is fun, and building a coin collection is fun. But there are different pathways to each source of fun:

1. If you want to practice identification, learn about coins, and get a range of interesting types for an economic price, then buy "group lots", which are often misleadingly sold as "uncleaned lots", but are already cleaned. Just don't expect to be able to improve on them.

2. If your wish is to practice coin cleaning, because you watched Indian Jones as a kid, love the discovery angle, and are good with your hands, then look for coins/groups that are evidently heavily encrusted, but still seem to have good detail underneath. It seems such groups are tough to find nowadays.

3. If your wish is not to clean, per-se, but to get a range of interesting coins, and then build a coin collection, then you probably want to know what the types are before buying. In that case, buy bargain-bin coins (such as can be found on Forum).

The golden days are long over. The golden days are always in the past but you simply can't get decent, truly uncleaned coins that will clean up well and don't cost more than they would cost cleaned. Forget ever finding anything of any value. Coin cleaning is a hobby and hobbies cost money. You have to actually enjoy the cleaning.

 
I tend to agree with Andreas a lot, because he says wise things. We've concurred on this particular point before.

[Mayadigger]

Ave!

From Andreas and Andrew -

The golden days are long over. The golden days are always in the past but you simply can't get decent, truly uncleaned coins that will clean up well and don't cost more than they would cost cleaned. Forget ever finding anything of any value.

I tend to agree with Andreas a lot, because he says wise things. We've concurred on this particular point before

Sorry gentlemen, but I have to seriously disagree. You are both wrong - so wrong, in fact, that it makes my eyes spin.

Andreas, when was the last time you purchased any uncleaned coins? 10 years ago? Andrew, the same question for you.

I agree with you both that the 'Golden Age' of uncleaned coins is certainly gone, but that doesn't mean that the discovery of scare/rare AE coins does not happen often. Over the last years we have found dozens of the aforementioned AE coins that were $50-$75 due to their RIC attribution.

See the pix below for some typical examples.

Best regards,
Kevin

[areich]

Where can you actually sell late Romans like that for $50-$75??? These are mostly $5 coins (the ones at the bottom even worse). I'm happy for you if you are able to sell them for that much but I have a hard time believing it. Apart from a few fields where there are some hardcore collectors (like Probus coins), the rarity according to RIC has absolutely no influence on the value. It's all about condition, there's little sense in collecting mediocre Late Romans when they can be had in almost perfect condition for little money.

[rick2]

i d have agreed with areich until a few days ago

but then i saw a constantinian coin that was assumed to be common go for 700 euros just because of a particular design and had to change my mind

with probus or even gallienus there are a lot of scarce coins that are starting to be recognized as such and consequently the price is rising


having said that i doubt you ll find them in uncleaned lots , from what i could make on a few pictures on ebay these lots are more uncleanable than uncleaned and then when you look at the seller`s other item you see that 99% of the times he has the better stuff sorted out

[areich]

Do you have a link to this coin? Common Late Romans might be rated R5 for the officina, extra dots, etc. No one will pay more than a few dollars extra for this 'rarity'.

Of course there are Late Romans types that are genuinely rare. Not being a collector of Late Romans I can't think of an example of such a rare type off the top of my head. You might find such a coin in an uncleaned lot. It's not impossible that all the people that have cherry-picked the lot may miss a rarity.

But the chance of that (and the coin being in a saleable condition) is extremely small.

It's a nice hobby for those that enjoy it but it is a money sink, like most hobbies. Coin collecting in contrast has quite a good chance to not lose you any money, assuming you sell after a long time of collecting and it hasn't become illegal by then.

[SC]

A genuine Constantine SPES PVBLIC coin (with labarum stuck in snake) will set you back more than that $700.  There are a few other Constantinian types too.

Nevertheless Areich is right that you won't find a simple variation of a late Roman type pushing a $15 coin to become a $700.

Shawn

[rick2]

do bear in mid that the ric 7 rarities are all off the mark !
and this is why people are not prepared to pay premium for these coins.

but areich you are making a very big mistake when you say that LRB are a sink and you will lose money while coin collecting will not make you lose any money

you are forgetting that what makes you or lose you money is the price you pay !

you can buy a lot of LRB for 50cent and sell them for 2euros
or you can buy an unc sestertius for 2000 euros and then realize that if you want to sell it you ll only get 500

at the same time if you buy a "rare" probus for 100 euros you ll probably end up losing money , while if you buy it for 10 you stand more than a chance of making something

of course this is all theoretical as most collector like myself cannot decide to part with their beloved coins.

[areich]

That's not what I said. I said buying uncleaneds is a money sink. Collecting coins isn't necessarily if you go about it the right way.
You shouldn't fool yourself or let others fool you. When buying uncleaneds you are spending money, most of which you'll never see again. That's fine if you enjoy cleaning coins.

[rick2]

i agree with you on the last statement on uncleaned coins

i have the impression these lots on ebay are well and truly searched before they are listed
plus theres no point in forking out 1 euro a coin in uncleaned lots (where you ll end up throwing 30-50% away) when for twice that amount you get a decent grade one

[carthago]

you are forgetting that what makes you or lose you money is the price you pay !

You rarely pay too much for hard assets...you pay too much too soon...provided you can hold it long enough to recover. 

Whether you make a profit in absolute terms depends on who's asking.   

[rick2]

someone once said:

in the long run we will all be dead

[benito]

someone once said:

in the long run we will all be dead

That's why a loving collector should patiently  induce his son's to collect Roman coins. And if you don't have sons you can leave your collection to me or my sons.
Labienus, Carthago ,Ahala and similar preferred.   

[Adrian W]

I agree uncleaned are a lot of fun but not a great way to spend money on developing a great collection though  its great for research I handled over 100,000 uncleaned back in the 1990's in one year on Ebay and they where far better than what you see today.

It is possible to make money on coins as I do that quite often but I take the profit to buy what I want to keep though I would like to keep ALL of them but unfortunately I cannot.I just bought about
300 coins of which I will keep half a dozen and probably send the decent one to to Joe to sell for me as he has done in the past.

I buy other stuff I can flip and keep the difference for my coin fund.

I had a good source as well but never did see any silver other than modern and no gold either.

[Tony A]

There are still good uncleaneds to be found - if you have the right connections or the right seller. That is why I warn our new friends about buying on eBay. The prices are low for a reason, mostly because the lots are loaded with slugs, but that's not a bad thing for the first few attempts at cleaning. Practice on slugs with less chance of damaging a potentially good coin - and we all have damaged a few during the learning process.

I agree that uncleaneds probably won't make a profit or lead to a retirement nest-egg, but most of us do it for the fun and challenge and the opportunity to own something historical. I got back into collecting and started cleaning in order to reduce my stress level (teaching in an urban school district isn't good for one's mental or physical health!), but never expected to make a profit. I keep most of the good ones, trade the duplicates, and donate the rest. (BTW: I've pretty much exhausted my supply for area schools, and might put out a request in a few weeks ...)

Anyway, I'm often concerned that all the talk and horror stories about junk-filled lots of uncleaneds and dire proclamations about ruining patinas during cleaning might be scaring off our new friends when we should be encouraging them and growing the hobby. Just a thought.

Best to all,

Tony

[Mayadigger]

Ave!

From Andreas -

That's not what I said. I said buying uncleaneds is a money sink. Collecting coins isn't necessarily if you go about it the right way. You shouldn't fool yourself or let others fool you. When buying uncleaneds you are spending money, most of which you'll never see again. That's fine if you enjoy cleaning coins.

Andreas, who is fooling who, here? And again, why are you always such a downer, discouraging newbies against purchasing uncleaned coins? I understand that you never took the time to learn the process but that doesn't mean that others, with more patience and developed skills, can not, so back off and let those who truly know how to clean coins have their say without your unpractised advice, okay? Still friends?  

In this case I do agree with Andreas et al that uncleaned coins from eBay suck - they're crap - period. But that does not equate to that all that are available from non-eBay sources.

As previously mentioned by many, uncleaned coins can be a money pit, if not purchased from the correct seller. But propery cleaned, the 'desert patina' coins from scarce Eastern Roman mints as seen listed at $10 each, is at least twice the price+ or more.

Best,
Kevin

[areich]

Kevin, you keep misunderstanding what I say. I don't want to discourage anyone from cleaning coins. But I think it's irresponsible to tell a new cleaner or collector that coin cleaning that he could sell his cleaned coins for $50-75 if he wanted to. This is simply not true, even if he turned out to be a wunderkind at coin cleaning. I don't  dispute the fact that people have found valuable coins in uncleaned lots but 90+% of coins in these lots are not valuable. I took a look at some 'Premium Uncleaned coins' currently on offer and I am confirmed in my belief that they are more expensive than proper cleaned coins in bulk lots, sometimes much more.

If you clean coins because you like it and accept the fact (and it is a fact) that you are spending money, most of which you'll never see again you have my blessing. Perhaps, if more people would clean coins because they enjoyed it, there wouldn't be so many horribly overcleaned coins around.

You are right, I may not be perfectly objective, having sunk a lot of money into uncleaned coins years ago, but neither are you, as a seller of uncleaned coins.

[Lord Geoff]

Well at least as I am concerned, I am not discouraged at all from getting my hands dirty and jumping right in there cleaning.  I have browsed a LOT on the internet about this.  From what I have gathered : it is generally accepted that 10 - 15 years ago was the "golden age" of cleaning and extremely high quality lots compared to today could be had.  It is also generally accepted that due to less hoards being dug up and perhaps a higher consciousness among the sellers that the quality of the lots has gone down.  The random lots on Ebay for around $1 apiece will often not contain anything good, a large amount of uncleanable / poor quality even once cleaned ones, and a large amount of Constantinian / Valentinian ones.

But for me I am ok with that.  I just bought my first lot of ancient coins of any type and haven't even gotten to look at them yet.  I figure that since this appeals to me it will probably be the best way for me to attribute and ID coins myself.  Plus I like to be hands on.  I think I will get more enjoyment from cleaning 10 coins then buying a coin for $20 and being like "OK I did it."  At least until I know what I want to collect.

And while I am sure the quality of the lots has gone down, from what I have read you still do have a decent percentage chance of getting something good.  Not guaranteed and by good I mean more likely in the $10 range than $75 but it is still quite possible.

My point is that for me at least I don't want anyone to worry they are being more encouraging or discouraging than they should.  I think that if someone has done their research they should be able to know about what they are going to get out of the hobby.

I do have one other question...the lot of 25 for $60 or thereabouts on this site...are there a pretty plentiful supply of lots like that on this site or is it kind of feast of famine for those types being available?

Any corrections to anything I said are welcome.

Geoff

[Tony A]

Don't worry! There are still plenty of good uncleaned lots available. The "Golden Age" may have passed, but that is more due to politics than supply. The Romans (and Greeks) minted coins in the hundreds of millions (perhaps billions) and even after melting them down for base metals, occassional collection for "recycling", and loss to natural events, there are estimates that over 25% have survived, leaving hundreds of millions still to be found in hordes, in gardens and farmer's fields, and God alone knews where else.

The real problem is politics. Italy, Greece, and Spain have essentially shut the door on exporting large amounts of coinage and antiquities - even as their economies collapse. It probably won't be too long before they discover they can't afford to sit on - literally - mountains of potential revenue that can neither be displayed or properly protected and cared for. Other countries like Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon - great sources for coins with those wonderful desert patinas! - are politically unstable but loaded with gigantic untapped quantities of coins. (There is a rather vibrant black market economy present, but it seems to be somewhat erratic.) With the fall of the Soviet Union, the Balkans have opened access up to huge amounts of antiquities - and some of the supplies are decent and actually legal. 

Anyway, There are still plenty of sources for coins.

BTW: What cleaning tools do you have?

Best to all!

Tony

[Lord Geoff]

Tony,

That is interesting - I had not read any of that.  I will welcome a flood of good cheap coins any time

As for my tools...I will begin tomorrow.  I will have soap, distilled water, a camera, a cut-down toothbrush, the fat kind of toothpicks, some bamboo skewers I can sharpen, a scalpel, and some type of magnifier. 

My plan is to take pictures of them obverse and reverse in groups of 5.  Then I will soak them for a couple of hours in warm soapy water (does it need to be distilled?)  Next I will lightly brush those that seem that need it.  Any that I don't think I can pick at under magnification I will soak in distilled water overnight and check in the morning.  Brush, pick at, etc.  Any that I am not able to pick at the next day I will leave in distilled water for a longer soak and reevaluate.

Does this seem like a good basic route to go through with each new batch of coins at least until I am able to better look at them and know what each one needs? 

I will borrowing the magnifier.  I have heard that the $25 visor magnifiers are sufficient.  Is this correct, at least for starting out?  I don't really have the funds now to get a microscope so I am going to be largely waiting to tackle the really bad ones for a while that will require a dental pick, boiling, etc.  The others should keep me busy for a while.

Thanks,
Geoff