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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Proculus coin found whats it worth? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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rick2
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« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2012, 10:04:04 am »

plus the risk that some more coins might be found in the future.

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« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2012, 10:11:52 am »

I wouldn't be so pessimistic. I wouldn't buy it if I had that much money to spare but it's a rare 'emperor', the first example brought a lot of money so everything's possible. Sheikhs are getting scarce but there are still a lot of people with money, or more money than taste if you're being snobby.
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« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2012, 10:19:24 am »

I wouldn't be so pessimistic. I wouldn't buy it if I had that much money to spare but it's a rare 'emperor', the first example brought a lot of money so everything's possible. Sheikhs are getting scarce but there are still a lot of people with money, or more money than taste if you're being snobby.

I agree it's possible. But is it certain, or even likely to fetch more than the GBP 60k (US$100k) existing offer? I'm not sure. I'm rather doubtful. It depends on the existence of two (not one) exceptionally rich and competitive collectors. Bear in mind that if it fails to reach a reserve at auction, the coin is tarnished for future sales and can often struggle to meet half that estimate when re-offered again a while later. One also doesn't want to risk selling it to a non-paying sheikh. DavidJ6 says that there is a certain GBP60k out there; I probably wouldn't leave the offer on the table too long, perhaps just long enough to check if there are other fixed price offers unless one is really a gambler. Leave it to auction at the levels cited, and one might end up a little happier or massively disappointed.
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« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2012, 10:59:57 am »

The Domitianus II coin found in a hoard was also the 2nd known coin of an emperor. The Chalgrove hoard as it was called, including the Domitianus, was bought by the Ashmolean Museum for $75,000 of which the Domitianus represented a quarter - say $18,000. The sale took place under the provisions of the Treasure Act, not at auction, but the price was estimated to be market value. That was in 2005.

The Proculus coin seems to have been a single find and thus won't attract the wider publicity that being part of a good hoard would attract.
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« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2012, 11:56:54 am »

Try to make sure that the buyer is not:


 Sheikh Saud Bin Mohammed Al-Thani .

(see above)

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HELEN S
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« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2012, 11:37:00 am »

  an interesting write up about the coin

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233959/Debate-Roman-artefact-coin-Proculus-field-metal-detecting-friends.html
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Mark Z
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« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2012, 01:57:35 pm »


Helen,

Nice find.

So since this coin is a die match to the other one which sold a while back, if it is determined that THIS one is fake, would that make the other one a fake, as well?

However, if it IS a 15th century production, I suppose it still has some value as a curiosity and as a collectible in its own right.

Regards,

mz
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HELEN S
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« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2012, 02:04:42 pm »



 its just mindblowing that replicas could have been made
i would think that  it will have to have some expert to determine  it before it can be sold so that the auctioneer can sell it for what it is
what a worry for the finder and no doubt a big shock 
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« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2012, 02:25:21 pm »

According to Bland, not a REproduction but a complete invention.
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« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2012, 02:43:55 pm »

I just wonder how a die match could end up so far appart and then found buried in a field.I just wonder what the chances are of that happening.
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« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2012, 02:47:25 pm »

I just wonder how a die match could end up so far appart and then found buried in a field.I just wonder what the chances are of that happening.

Die matches are  not that rare.  In fact with rare coins they are usually die matched.  From what I've read the first coin's reverse is not as centered correct?  Anyone have a pic of the first one?
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« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2012, 02:52:07 pm »

Anyone have a pic of the first one?


http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/proculus/MM_1994_640.jpg
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« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2012, 03:03:46 pm »

 top is  the reverse of the new one
  bottom is the old coin
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« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2012, 03:10:12 pm »

I agree die matches are not that rare but suprised they could be so far away especially when this is possibly one of only 2 found
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« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2012, 03:21:10 pm »

If genuine, it would be possible that only very few coins were struck from very few (perhaps only these two) dies. Not that it could easily be proven but if you could know that it was a 15th century invention, still a very desirable coin to some. Not as valuable of course. But I don't think the auction house is going to change their mind and go with Bland's assessment. I don't know if any in-depth testing was done on the coin. The BM could probably tell it if was a 20th century product but can they non-destructively tell the difference between very very old and ancient?
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« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2012, 05:26:56 pm »

I asked Hubert Lanz about the first Proculus coin, since it was sold in Munich and was purchased by the Munich Coin Cabinet, but then later (I had heard) was condemned as a forgery.

Dr. Lanz responded that that first specimen had a very convincing provenance: the British coin dealer Richard Swan, who lived in Munich for many years, "got it from a large lot of late roman Ants found in England which he cleaned."

So it would seem that the antiquity of the two coins can hardly be doubted.

What I miss, perhaps just out of ignorance, is numismatic support for the fabric and style of the coins: is this what a coinage produced by a usurper in Cologne in 280 AD should look like?
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« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2012, 06:21:29 pm »

Dear Board,

I had recently interviewed one of the finders and received closeup photos of the antoninianus before it was handed over to Dix Noonan Webb (which was today).  

For me, the quality and style of the engraving, the way in which it was struck, and the fabric of the flan, all work together to rule out a 15th century fantasy.  An inventor of such a fraud would have to be extremely ingenious to copy a debased antoninianus over some showier denomination and then give a distinct barbarous flare to the inscriptions and "Gallic" look to the designs, just as someone might expect from a coin minted in the late 3rd century AD in an area of Gaul without access to an official imperial mint, but instead to local minters of barbarous radiates.  Compare the situation of Regalian.  

What's more, the simple obverse inscription IMP C PROCULUS AUG does not correspond to Hubertus Goltzius' supposed recording of a Proculus coin with the more fanciful reading of IMP C T AEL PROCVLVS P F AVG.  See page 75 of his Thesaurus rei antiquariae huberrimus (1579).  

And lastly, before the second coin of Domitianus showed up (2003), or more correctly, before Marcus Weder's Swiss Numismatic Review paper (1997), there was also much skepticism about the authenticity of such coins, which went back many decades.  See, for instance, "Forging a Usurper in Late Roman Aquitania" by Lawrence Okamura in Hermes 120 (1992; pp. 103-109).

    
Best regards,

Mark Fox
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Adrian W
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« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2012, 07:48:02 pm »

This reminds me of an interesting story concerning whats supposed to be a Monet painting and how a known group of experts can screw things up for an owner.
This supposed Monet has been in this family for years,for a painting to be considered to be a Monet it has to be specifically accepted by the Wildenstein foundation
if they do not accept it as such then it goes no where.

One of the founders of the foundation who passed away deemed this painting to be a fake,however recent research by known experts all have concluded its a real
one and the provenance behind it is secure.They even confirmed where the painting was painted and that Monet was known to be in the area at that time.Forensics
have compared real Monet's to this one and all agree this is the real thing,paint type,brush style etc all match up.

So with the lastest info in hand all of this was presented to the Wildenstein foundation in the last few years who within a short period of time which suggests they never looked at all the evidence
deemed to be fake as they felt the founding father who is a Wildestein knows the real thing when he sees one so if he says its a fake then its a fake.

Oddly some of the ones they deemed to be real have turned out to be a fake.

So based on the fact this one guy says this painting goes no where.

Seems a similar situation regarding this coin,one expert says it a fakes and then its all over with.

I am not an expert and really know nothing about coins,but from a logical point of view it seems unlikey someone in the 16th cent would take the time to fake a low
quality coin as how many collectors can their be collecting coins at that time that would be well known why not make a perfect specimen and make it gold.It's not like today where with communication you can reach thousands of collectors then to loose it in a field seems extreme.

I also do not think that these coins look anything like each other which suggests more than one die.

As I said I know nothing,but it would be nice to think its the real thing.
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« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2012, 02:01:22 am »

The coins are from the same dies.
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« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2012, 06:22:25 am »

What I miss, perhaps just out of ignorance, is numismatic support for the fabric and style of the coins: is this what a coinage produced by a usurper in Cologne in 280 AD should look like?

Yes, I think that is what one would expect a coin of an usurper in northern Gaul at that time look like. Aurelian had closed the regular mints of Trier and Cologne in c. 273-274 AD and moved them to Lugdunum, leading to a lack of supply of coinage in Britain and northern Gaul. Partially as a result, we see these countless imitations of Gallic Empire coins, which continued or maybe even increased to be struck after the fall of Tetricus. So if a short-living usurper would set up a new mint in that area, without having access to regular die cutters, one would expect the style and fabric of his coins to be in line with better quality imitations of that area (assuming he will have hired the more skilled artists rather than simple and poor quality forgers), as the two Proculus coins are, but not in line with contemporary official coins from Lugdunum, Rome etc., especially (but not only) since they did not circulate in greater numbers in the area.

Considering this, I find it hard to believe that a 15th Century (or somewhat later) forger would a.) know of the context of what were considered barbarian imitations for a long time and b.) produce a fake of this quality, with style and fabric perfectly fitting in what one would expect from original coins of an usurper in that area, with convincing corrosion, surfaces and strikes c.) the fake only showing up twice, in the late 20th and early 21st Century under such circumstances as we see it here.

Style, surfaces and find circumstances thus seem to be convincing to me and I so far fail to see a reason to doubt the authenticity of these coins - other than that the extreme rarity, which understandably raises initial doubts. But if the name on the coins is the only reason to doubt them, while everything else seems to be pointing towards authenticity, I don't think they can be condemned.

As for the price, I agree that 50-80''000 £ do sound challenging, but I wouldn't completely rule out that it might sell. If people believe in the authenticity, the coin certainly would be in a 5-digit-price range as a minimum in any auction.

Lars
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« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2012, 02:49:14 pm »

This report in the Mail contains a quote from Roger Bland at the BM, which indicates that they believe it to be a forgery.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2233959/Debate-Roman-artefact-coin-Proculus-field-metal-detecting-friends.html

Note - I missed the fact that Helen had already posted this. The quote from Roger Bland is still worth looking at though.
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« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2012, 08:55:46 am »

A further report in the local press:

"A COIN expert says he is “100 per cent sure” that the Roman coin found by two York metal detector enthusiasts in a field near Stamford Bridge is genuine.

Jim Brown, of Dix Noonan Webb, specialist auctioneers and valuers of coins, travelled to York from London yesterday to examine the silver coin.

The coin’s finders, Colin Popplewell and Mark Hildreth, say it is one of only two found in the world which feature Proculus, the “usurper” Roman Emperor of 280AD.

Mr Brown said the coin would be auctioned next spring and, while it was impossible to say how much it would fetch, £50,000 would be a conservative estimate.

Rebecca Griffiths, finds liaison officer at the Yorkshire Museum, said yesterday she had seen the coin but had not recorded it, as the metal detectorists had claimed, because she had concerns it might actually be a fake from the Renaissance period.

But Mr Brown, who said he had been involved with coins for almost 40 years, said it was definitely not a Renaissance fake.

“I am absolutely sure it’s Roman – 100 per cent,” he said, before taking the coin to London for safekeeping."
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« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2012, 09:13:53 am »

A further report in the local press:

"A COIN expert says he is “100 per cent sure” that the Roman coin found by two York metal detector enthusiasts in a field near Stamford Bridge is genuine.

Jim Brown, of Dix Noonan Webb, specialist auctioneers and valuers of coins, travelled to York from London yesterday to examine the silver coin.

The coin’s finders, Colin Popplewell and Mark Hildreth, say it is one of only two found in the world which feature Proculus, the “usurper” Roman Emperor of 280AD.

Mr Brown said the coin would be auctioned next spring and, while it was impossible to say how much it would fetch, £50,000 would be a conservative estimate.

Rebecca Griffiths, finds liaison officer at the Yorkshire Museum, said yesterday she had seen the coin but had not recorded it, as the metal detectorists had claimed, because she had concerns it might actually be a fake from the Renaissance period.

But Mr Brown, who said he had been involved with coins for almost 40 years, said it was definitely not a Renaissance fake.

“I am absolutely sure it’s Roman – 100 per cent,” he said, before taking the coin to London for safekeeping."



Well, I would not expect Mr Brown to say otherwise, when you consider his firm will be the auction house of record.

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Mark Z
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« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2012, 08:29:21 am »

I asked Hubert Lanz about the first Proculus coin, since it was sold in Munich and was purchased by the Munich Coin Cabinet, but then later (I had heard) was condemned as a forgery.

Dr. Lanz responded that that first specimen had a very convincing provenance: the British coin dealer Richard Swan, who lived in Munich for many years, "got it from a large lot of late roman Ants found in England which he cleaned."

So it would seem that the antiquity of the two coins can hardly be doubted.

What I miss, perhaps just out of ignorance, is numismatic support for the fabric and style of the coins: is this what a coinage produced by a usurper in Cologne in 280 AD should look like?


Knowing that the FIRST coin was also found in the UK (I hadn't grasped the significance of this earlier) makes me feel a lot better about this newly-found second one.

While I realize that it's entirely possible, again, how coinage of a relatively short-lived usurper minted in Cologne ended up in the UK is still somewhat hazy to me. Would they have had any value or be considered "legal tender" in the UK at that time?

NOTE: I have edited this post regarding where these coins may have been minted after re-reading Lars' post above. I just couldn't make the connection between Lugdunum and Cologne but what Lars says makes a lot of sense regarding how these coins came to be. I do note that Proculus was apparently very wealthy and therefore he could presumably hire the best die cutters available.

Regards,
mz
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« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2012, 08:33:20 am »

UK finds get reported , and that might not be the case for germany or france that could be one reason
plus metal detecting is an established sport over here

bear in mind that there are a lot of different legislation that are more restrictive so who finds coins in turkey for example keeps quiet
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