Medieval coin with a bishop(?) and a french lily

[blot-sven]

Can anyone identify this (14mm) silver coin with a bishop(?) and a french lily?

Regards

[WelfIV]

Hi,

I haven't found an exact match yet, but maybe it is a Pfennig from Paderborn.
There are several very similar coins from the German bishopric Paderborn (in Westphalia) that show the bishop on one side and a building with a lily on the other side.
Compare to these:
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=140038
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=718001
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=140027

Peter

[WelfIV]

Hi,

I am still not totally sure, but after a bit more research, I still think it is a Pfennig of the bishopric Paderborn:
Germany
Paderborn, Bishopric
Bishop Otto von Rietberg (1277-1307)
Pfennig, minted at Warburg
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=784440

If it is that coin, the reverse with the fleur de lis is decentered.
I was not able to find a photo of a specimen of this type of coin that shows the dots in the center of the book as they are shown on your coin. But in the old book "Die Mittelalter-Münzen von Münster, Osnabrück, Paderborn, Corvei und Hervord" (from 1850) of Heinrich Philipp Cappe there is a drawing of this coin that also shows three dots on the book cover.

Btw, Warburg's coat of arms still shows the fleur de lis today.
See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg

Peter

[elgitano]

Dear Peter

I agree with you, but not in date, Paderborn, Bistum Simon I. zur Lippe 1247-1277 Pfennig ,Warburg



Regards

[WelfIV]

Hello elgitano,

well, maybe the bishop is not Otto but his predecessor Simon.
Unfortunately I don't have new literature about the coins of Paderborn, so I don't know if recent numismatic research assigns this coin to Simon.

My copy of the old book of Cappe says it is Otto and Weingärtner says this, too.
The examples of this type of coin that I found in auction catalogs and in offers of coin dealers also are assigned to bishop Otto. But coin dealers often use old attributions again and again, no matter if there are new and more logical attributions.

Unfortunately the flans of these coins are so small that only little parts of the inscription can be read. So I haven't seen any specimen that clearly shows the name of the bishop.
But in the catalog of the Elsen auction 83/2005 there is a coin whose inscription starts with an O and the following letter might be a T (only the lower half can be seen), so OT[TO...] seems to be probable.

Could you please tell me what literature you used to assign this coin to bishop Simon or the reason why it isn't assigned to Otto anymore?
Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Peter

P.S.: A very rare coin of the counts of Waldeck exists, that is very similar to this coin. See here:
http://www.waldecker-muenzen.de/index2.php?nnr_filter=&von=&bis=&rnr=&nnr=&such_str=SASSENBERC&als_text=&als_oder=&seite=0
This coin that was minted at Sachsenberg is attributed to count Adolf (1214-1270). This early attribition and the obvious similarity of both coins made me wonder if the coin from Warburg also might be struck earlier than Otto's reign (1277-1307). So Simon would be the better match than Otto if these two coins circulated at the same time.

[elgitano]

Of course

As you said, it´s a coin dealer

[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Regards

[WelfIV]

Hello elgitano,

thank you for the link to the offer with the different attribution!
It's a pity, that Olding doesn't tell why he attributes the coin to bishop Simon instead of Otto.
He cites Weingärtner, but Weingärtner also attributed this coin to Otto. That's a bit confusing.
And all of his colleagues seem to attribute this coin to Otto instead:
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[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]
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The specimen from the collection Schulte shows a part of the inscription.
And there "OTTO..." seems to be much more likely than "SIMON...".
The coin can be seen here:
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=140038
I think, that can only be read as "OTTO", can't it?

Regards,
Peter

[blot-sven]

Thank you very much!