Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 23, 2014, 11:51:54 pm
Search Calendar Login Register

Recent Additions to Forum's Shop


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Antiquities  |  Other Antiquities  |  Topic: wristwatch and coin 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: wristwatch and coin  (Read 1747 times)
reloj
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« on: April 07, 2012, 07:52:12 am »


Hello
 I inherited this Dogma wristwatch from my grandfather. The dial of the watch displays an image that I don´t know  identify. The watch is from the '40 decade (maybe early '50).  Dogma brand  don´t manufactured watches actually and they could not give me information about
Could you tell me what figure  represents this watch?
Thanks in advance
Julius














Logged
Mark Z
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2370


Sit Julius Caesar quod vos es non.


« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 09:01:41 am »

Julius,

That's a neat little watch.

Did you try an internet search?

The history of these watches seems to be somewhat obscure but what is certain that it is Swiss and they have been manufactured for 100+ years.

The design on the face could be completely arbitrary (and most likely is). This is just a guess, but your watch face seems to depict either a prominent ancient Greek or Roman (the laurel wreath might depict that) holding a dove in his hand. Since the dove is a symbol of peace, that would weigh against the figure being a Roman, I suppose. The bare right shoulder of the figure seems more Greek than Roman to me but, again, I could be wrong. The Ionic style of columns in the background again make me tend to believe this picture is Greek in nature.

There are other Dogma watches for sale on places like e*ay, one of which depicts Masonic symbols, so again, whatever was depicted on the watch face could be at the caprice of the designer.

mz
Logged

reloj
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 09:40:32 am »

Thank you Mark from your answer.

Indeed, I have been looking and asking for internet. Even ask a Masonic lodge since the 12 stars ( 4 stairs), the sun's rays, Ionian columns, ... could be related to the Masonic world. The answer was categorical: "the dial does not represent anything Masonic"
but I have understood that Masoneria does not give much information about their world.     
 I have also noticed the unclear distinction between Greek and Roman symbols. The mixture of Greek female figure (right shoulder) vs. Roman laurel.

 Maybe my grandfather was masonic.

By the way, I'm from Barcelona (Spain)
Julius
Logged
benito
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2572


quousque tandem abutere Sadigh pecunia nostra


« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 10:30:55 am »

Yes. The image appears to be greek. The birdie is not an owl so we can exclude Athena. If a dove ,should be Aphrodite. IMO its a cuckoo  ergo Hera.
Logged

reloj
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 11:27:39 am »

¿Nike?----- ¿laurel?------¿Olympic Games ?-------- stars (steps to podium?)
¿Apolo?-----¿sun ray´s?------¿laurel?--------¿crown (the bird seems dove but...)
Logged
Syltorian
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 388


« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2012, 01:32:36 pm »

Could it be a "minor" deity? I'm thinking about Peace, in particular. Though an association of a dove with Peace is rather late as far as symbolism is concerned (4th century?), I doubt the watchmakers were too concerned about that.

Logged

Jochen
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 10213


Homo sum nil humanum a me alienum puto.


« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2012, 03:02:30 pm »

I think the dove as symbol of peace originates not earlier than from Picasso 1949. Actually the dove is a very agressive animal, the rat of the air.

Best regards
Logged

Arae Flaviae, Agri Decumates
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10672
Syltorian
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 388


« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2012, 03:33:18 pm »

According to wikipedia, "The dove appears in many funerary inscriptions in the Roman catacombs, sometimes accompanied by the words in pace (Latin for "in peace"). [...] In another there is a shallow relief sculpture showing a dove with a branch flying to a figure marked in Greek ΕΙΡΗΝΗ (Eirene, or Peace)."

"The Carthaginian Tertullian (c.160 – c.220) compared Noah's dove, who "announced to the world the assaugement of divine wrath, when she had been sent out of the ark and returned with the olive branch" with the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove that descends in baptism, "bringing us the peace of God, sent out from the heavens".[30] In the fourth century, St. Jerome's Latin Bible, possibly reflecting this Christian comparison between the peace brought by baptism and the ending of the Flood, rendered the Hebrew Bible's "olive leaf" in Noah as "olive branch" (ramum olivae). By the fifth century, St Augustine of Hippo confirmed the Christian reading of the pagan olive branch into Noah, writing that, "perpetual peace is indicated by the olive branch (oleae ramusculo) that the dove brought with it when it returned to the ark."

Wikipedia then gives a few examples: "In the late 15th century, a dove with an olive branch was used on the seal of Dieci di Balia, the Florentine committee known as The Ten of Liberty and Peace, whose secretary was Machiavelli; it bore the motto, "Pax et Defencio Libertatis" (Peace and the Defence of Liberty) --- "In 18th century America, a £2 note of North Carolina (1771) depicted the dove and olive with a motto meaning: "Peace restored". Georgia's $40 note of 1778 portrayed the dove and olive and a hand holding a dagger, with a motto meaning "Either war or peace, prepared for both."; In the "Early 19th century the Society for the Promotion of Permanent and Universal Peace, also known as The London Peace Society, formed on Quaker initiative in 1816, used the symbol of a dove and olive branch.", and this all before Picasso.

Still the watch postdates Picasso, if not by long. So even if one were the ignore the above extracts from the wikipedia, it could tie in to the Picassoan motive.

Logged

Romanorvm
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2916


Go ahead, make my day.


WWW
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2012, 12:37:57 am »

Same style watch being discussed below. Opinion is Juno/Hera holding cuckoo approx. 1941??

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/dogma-spectacular-dial-511307.html
Logged

Mark Z
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2370


Sit Julius Caesar quod vos es non.


« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2012, 07:49:00 am »

Romanorvm,

Nice pull!

benito,

amazing!

watch,

cool Smiley

mz
Logged

reloj
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2012, 01:08:36 pm »

Thanks for your help.
 Two amateurs ornithologists have told me that the bird in the watch is  certainly a cuckoo. They have sent me these pictures of cuckoos. So, if cuckoo is Hera (IMO).
Time ago I asked on the  Watchuseek forum (the best watch´s forum in internet) about this watch as Romanorum discovered.

Regards





Logged
Mark Z
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2370


Sit Julius Caesar quod vos es non.


« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 02:08:28 pm »

I wonder how many other "Dogma" watches were created using mythological scenes on the face?

mz
Logged

reloj
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 02:33:10 pm »

I wonder how many other "Dogma" watches were created using mythological scenes on the face?

nz

Mark,
I have no news thru Watchuseek forum if  mythological scenes were common in dial´s Dogma. It is very strange that no one has a spare to my  post in Watchuseek watches forum saying "I have a dial similar" or "I have seen a dial like this"  I have the suspicion that the dial was sent  to build expressly with this scene.         But, I will investigate  Smiley
Regads
Julius
PS: It sure if is cuckoo is Hera,  Is not it?
Logged
reloj
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2012, 02:40:54 pm »

Sorry for my bad level of english language.

PS: Is it sure if the bird is cuckoo then goodness is Hera,  Is not it?
Logged
Syltorian
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 388


« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2012, 05:08:03 pm »

Hera is associated with the cuckoo because this was a bird Zeus transformed himself into before they wed. So there could also be a wedding connection, albeit an obscure one. 

I find in my dictionary of symbols that the cries of the cuckoo announce either the number of years till you die or till you marry, hence possibly the cuckoo clock of the Schwartzwald area: in any sense, such a symbolism fits well with a watch ("time"), but not so much with Hera, unless the idea of marriage is carried over again, since Hera presided over marriages. 

If so, one might speculate that this was a special commission, but one would also expect a clearer indication - a dedication, for instance. Lacking this, it's rather unsafe to speculate. 
Logged

Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Antiquities  |  Other Antiquities  |  Topic: wristwatch and coin « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 1.097 seconds with 54 queries.