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Author Topic: Greek mints  (Read 5489 times)

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Arion

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Greek mints
« on: March 24, 2012, 01:26:30 pm »
Does anyone know of any archaeological studies of Greek mints?

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2012, 10:39:36 pm »
The Athenian Agora Volume XXVI The Greek Coins by John Kroll (1993) - Appendix B Unstruck Blanks and the Mints of the Agora

The Excavations at Ancient Halieis Volume 1 The Fortifications and Structures by Marian H. McAllister (ed.) (2005) - Chapter 8 The Mint by James A. Dengate

As a result of reading these excavation reports I have had the good fortune to stand on the exact  spots (or within a few metres of each) where these three coins in my collection were minted 1750-2300 years ago... pretty neat!

Offline Steve E

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2012, 12:22:51 am »
[As a result of reading these excavation reports I have had the good fortune to stand on the exact  spots (or within a few metres of each) where these three coins in my collection were minted 1750-2300 years ago... pretty neat!

That's making a tangible connection to history! Pretty neat indeed :)

Arion

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2012, 12:17:32 pm »
"The Athenian Agora Volume XXVI The Greek Coins by John Kroll (1993) - Appendix B Unstruck Blanks and the Mints of the Agora

The Excavations at Ancient Halieis Volume 1 The Fortifications and Structures by Marian H. McAllister (ed.) (2005) - Chapter 8 The Mint by James A. Dengate"

Does either book discuss how the coin blanks were made, or have evidence/pictures of molds, plates, crucibles, etc?


Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2012, 05:09:44 pm »
Does either book discuss how the coin blanks were made, or have evidence/pictures of molds, plates, crucibles, etc?

Both discuss the process and have extensive images of the excavated blanks, although the quality of the Halieis images is rather poor. Neither mint excavations recovered molds for flans and the mints only produced AE coinage at the time they were in operation. The evidence from the excavations points to a multistage process for the production of flans from bronze rods that were chiseled to form crude blanks that were then hammered to flatten and shape before striking. The production process appears remarkably consistent between the two excavated sites, despite the passage of about 500 years between the Halies and Agora mint operations as excavated.

Arion

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2012, 09:35:49 pm »
Thanks for the info! I just ordered the books. You have to be careful where you look ... one site listed the Agora Vol 26 book at $4,000! I got one for $80.

Is it safe to assume that silver and gold coins were done the same way?

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2012, 10:30:23 pm »
Thanks for the info! I just ordered the books. You have to be careful where you look ... one site listed the Agora Vol 26 book at $4,000! I got one for $80.

Is it safe to assume that silver and gold coins were done the same way?

You'll enjoy the books.  The Agora volume is particularly informative dealing with over 17,000 Greek (not just Athenian) coins found in the Agora excavations.  Beautifully documented and illustrated its a wonderful blending of archeology, numismatics  and history.  The Halieis volume is equally fascinating dealing with this little known but remarkably preserved fortified site which was abandoned for reasons unknown in the 3rd century BC. The information gleaned ion the construction of classical and early Hellenistic fortifications is wonderful. The book is very well illustrated with diagrams and photos although the quality of the images for Chapters 8 & 9 (the Mint and Coins) is less than great. A brief summary of the site: http://home.comcast.net/~btse1/halieis/history/history.htm

With respect to coin manufacture quite different processes applied to precious metal and base metal coinages. It appears that in Athens the precious metal coinage was produced at a different mint to the base metal coinage (at least no evidence of co-incidence in minting has been found in excavations). Halieis was a relatively poor city and with the exception of a handful of rare silver obols, never struck precious metal coinage, probably relying on the precious metal coinage struck at its neighboring parent city Hermione. In some other excavations there is evidence for the possibility that bronze coin manufacture may have been outsourced or contracted out by civic authorities to families as a domestic home industry and the Halies volume touches on this possibility.

Silver and gold flans were cast in molds from carefully weighed quantities of metal so as to conform to the weight standard - weights were checked at every step of the minting process to ensure tight compliance with the applicable weight standard - typically +/- 2% for Gold and +/-5% for Silver.

Bronze on the other hand was only about 100th the value of silver by weight so that no such care was necessary in flan and coin manufacture.  As a result speed and efficiency in manufacture determined the process which was to cut bronze rods and/or bars by a chisel blow into a rough length and weight chunk, then flatten and shape the chunk of cut metal with a few hammer blows prior to heating and striking.  This is why the Bronze coinages rarely adhere to any defined weight standard and show an enormous dispersion in weights for any denomination (which as much as anything is based on flan diameter as well as weight and often with differentiated design from one denomination to the other).  These points are amply demonstrated with the metrological studies to be found in the two articles.

I am sure you'll enjoy both volumes for they really add a huge amount of context and insight to the numismatics of this period of Greek history (350 BC-267 AD). Also if you are remotely interested in archaeology then they afford a nice insight into the practical basis and methodology of the subject as applied to two sites over many years of excavation.

Arion

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2012, 10:41:29 pm »
"Silver and gold flans were cast in molds from carefully weighed quantities of metal"

Can you direct me to any references/pictures showing the molds used in the casting process?

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2012, 10:55:33 pm »
Wayne Sayles Ancient coin collecting has a general description and schematic diagrams in the section How Ancient Coins were Made  Also this site provides a bit of background https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/fabric.html

I have seen scholarly articles on the subject and I'll try and find them. 

Also I have seen photos of ancient flan molds  on some auction sites, but the specifics of which auctions I cannot recall at present. One example for cast bronze flans is found here http://www.flickr.com/photos/somebachs/2616189753/

Arion

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2012, 12:07:15 am »
I have seen scholarly articles on the subject and I'll try and find them. 

I am specifically interested in the scholarly studies. I'm finding that the more general/popular accounts may be based more on opinion, than archaeological evidence. For example, some references mention pouring molten metal into open faced molds. They are likely quoting earlier sources (i.e. Cooper) that said it might have been done this way. Having tried it, I can assure you that you will not get consistent weight targets with this method. Closed faced molds make a lot more sense in terms of consistent target weight results.

The picture of the bronze flan mold is exactly the type of info I am looking for. A report about such a mold with an analysis showing silver or gold residues in the mold would be good hard evidence of how it was done in the day!

There is a great picture of a Byzantine coin mold in "Conii e scene di coniazione"  Lucia Travaini e Alessia Bolis (Editors).
It is too late to be credible for early Greek.

Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2012, 02:39:17 am »
From the Halieis volume Chapter 8 footnote 1... For ancient mints and minting see Howgego 1995, 26-35
Howgego C. 1995. Ancient History from Coins.  Approaching the Ancient World, ed. Richard Stoneman. London: Routledge.

I have not seen this article but it may be worth following up on.


Another lead to another mint excavation... Footnote 19... Metallurgical analysis of the Halieis samples has not yet been possible. C.f. Consolaki and Hackens 1980, 291-292 for neutron activation analysis of some of the Argive mint debris.
Consalaki H. and T. Hackens. 1980 Un atelier monetaire dans un temp argien? In Etudes Argiennes, Bulletin de Correspondance Hellenique supplement 6, 279-94. Paris Ecole Francaise d'Athenes.


Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 02:53:11 am »
This footnote from Appendix B of the Agora volume also provides some further leads on other mints in Greece that have been excavated.....

I'll keep an eye out for additional references that may be of interest.

Offline Dapsul

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2012, 08:14:42 am »
The excavation report of the Hellenistic mint at Macedonian Pella is published, but you have to read Greek: M. Oikonomakou - T. Kourebana, Eνα νoμισματoκoπείo στήν αρχαία Πέλλα. Mιά δεύτερη πρoσέγγιση, AEphem 146 (2007) 221-242.

Frank

Offline areich

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2012, 08:39:37 am »
Ancient history from coins by Howgego is really a must-read. Great book, I doubt there are many collectors here who won't find a number of new things in there they didn't know about. Worth reading more than once.
Andreas Reich

Arion

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2012, 04:20:01 pm »
Here's study I Googled up on bronze coin blanks. Not the most prestigious Journal, but interesting none the less:
https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/4226/1/V55N01_044.pdf

CHEMICAL DATING OF BRONZE COIN BLANKS FROM THE ATHENIAN AGORA
EARLE R. CALEY AND WALLACE H. DEEBEL

Arion

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2012, 11:38:06 am »
I found an interesting discussion about flan molds in:
 Biblical & Judean Coins / Topic: Coin Dies
 
Quick summary: drilled limestone molds used for bronze flans, 247 flans per casting, 15-16 mm, 4.6 mm thick, 1st c AD

More detailed reference:
http://antiquities.academia.edu/DonaldTAriel/Papers/1139150/Ariel_D.T._A_First_Century_CE_Mint_South_of_Jerusalem_Numismatic_Evidence._New_Studies_in_the_Archaeology_of_Jerusalem_and_its_Surroundings._Collected_Papers_V_2011_17_-23_

Arion

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2012, 11:58:25 am »
The evidence from the excavations points to a multistage process for the production of flans from bronze rods that were chiseled to form crude blanks that were then hammered to flatten and shape before striking. The production process appears remarkably consistent between the two excavated sites, despite the passage of about 500 years between the Halies and Agora mint operations as excavated.

G F Hill's "Ancient Methods of Coining" mentions rods of silver used to make blanks: "Two specimens in the British Museum have been made from a rod, which has been partly cut through, and then snapped off." page 13, Plate I,6.

Footnote says: "They weigh 2.79 and 2.72 grams, respectively, and would have been used for Euboic tetraobols."

A second footnote says: "Forty-three bronze blanks found in the remains of the supposed mint at Chersonesus Taurica seem to have been produced this way (see D N Kosciusko-Waluzynicz, op. cit., pp. 2 ff.). Dutilh has published (Journ. Internat., ii, 1899, pp. 283ff.) some small pigs of bronze, apparently flat in section, which were apparently used for making coins in Egypt under the Empire: he thinks they were put between the dies and then cut off. They were about 8 to 10 cm long."


Does anyone know more about any of these finds?

Offline n.igma

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Re: Greek mints
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 10:30:16 pm »
Quote from: Lloyd Taylor on March 24, 2012, 10:39:36 pm
As a result of reading these excavation reports I have had the good fortune to stand on the exact  spots (or within a few metres of each) where these three coins in my collection were minted 1750-2300 years ago... pretty neat!

Very cool and an amazing thing to consider possible after all this time.
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