The eagles of Alexandria (minting demonstration)

[Andrew McCabe]

A friend passed the following link to me (I include the related email which asks that it be shared) and I'm sure it will interest many on this group:
cheers
Andrew

You will find by cliking on the following link the new documentary movie "The Eagles of Alexandria".
http://www.1001images.com/filmogrf/MA14_aiglesalex/aigles/aiglesalex.html
It is available both in french and english versions. Directed by Raymond Collet, it is part of the collection "The skills of Archaeology" presented by Jean-Yves Empereur and edited by the Centre d'Études Alexandrines.Do not hesitate to share this link!

As a reminder, the first volume of the experimentations "Making a mint", is still avalaible, in free streaming, at this address :
http://www.1001images.com/filmogrf/MA10_frappermonnaie/frapper/monnaie.html

Regards,
Thomas Faucher
Membre scientifique - Institut Français d'Archéologie Orientale

[Jay GT4]

Excellent! Thanks for posting.

[ionutbd]

Superb! Thank you verry much!

[dafnis]

Watched both... excellent! Thanks Andrew!

[Steff V]

Very interesting, thank you!


But I have one question: the method they use to make their coins (the dies were they pour the bronze in) would leave marks on the edges, right ? Because they have to remove metal and as far is a known ancient coins don't have such marks on the edges....

[cmcdon0923]

Sure wish I spoke French (or it had English subtitles)....although the actual casting ang minting demonstrations were pretty much self explanatory.

Do they eventually sell these "coins"?  And if so, does anyone here own one?

[dafnis]

Sure wish I spoke French (or it had English subtitles)

you should be covered on both accounts (English spoken, with subtitles when French is spoken) if you select the English version.

[cmcdon0923]

Sure wish I spoke French (or it had English subtitles)

you should be covered on both accounts (English spoken, with subtitles when French is spoken) if you select the English version.

Doh.....the link for the English version was just off the bottom of my screen, and I never thought to scroll down just one click or two.  Thanks !!!

[El Reye]

Was that a moto tool with a brush being used by a trained archeologist cleaning a coin at the beginning of the film, I have yet to try that method.

[Bdsn]

That was a great video, thanks for sharing it.  That lady cleaning the coin had a pretty nice setup.  Now I want a digital microscope and a projector.

Justin

[otlichnik]

Excellent.   Thanks Andrew.  Well worth the 18 minutes to watch (and I think 9 for the second video).

Has anyone been to the Melle centre??  Looks well worth a trip.

They don't say for certain what weight of AE coin they are striking - as the Ptolemaic double eagle was found in several weight standards - but we are led to believe that it is the 8 gram denomination they talk about earlier.  It is successfully struck cold using a 5kg sledge.  I would love for them to experiment someday striking the earlier heavier Ptolemaic bronzes (up to 100 grams!) one day using the mouton / pile driver device described in "B. Bouyon, G. Depeyrot - J.L. Desnier, Systèmes et technologie des monnaies de bronze, (4e s. avant J.-C. - 3e s. après J.-C.), Wetteren, 2000."

The cleaning set-up from the Alexandrian workshop is interesting.  I will try to duplicate it some time with my small digital microscope and lap top.  However, I think the digital microscope that I have (worth about $100) has such a narrow depth of field as to render this impossible.

I am not sure though what she was doing using the rotary tool with what looked like a felt burnishing wheel.  I have used this to gently polish ren wax on coins but I don't know how it could possible clean a coin.  It is too soft.  Interestingly the coin she was working on appeared to have had the patina burnished off in parts as it was showing rather coppery highlights.  I wonder if she had put some form of abrasive paste on the coin first - then a felt wheel might do some cleaning though it would likely grind away the patina too.

Shawn

[cmcdon0923]

you should be covered on both accounts (English spoken, with subtitles when French is spoken) if you select the English version.

Much more interesting when viewed in a language you understand !!!

[Lloyd]

Andrew - thanks for posting the link. An interesting study, well documented in the video clip.

I am interested to see  that they are cold striking these bronzes, when there is ample evidence from other experimental archaeology coin striking efforts, and I understand written accounts, that the flans needed to be and were in fact heated to red heat at the time of striking so as to fully and clearly impart the design to the struck metal surface. This minimized the the blow to the die required to impart the design and thus resulted not only in improved quality of product but longer average die life.

As a result, I'd view the die life quoted in the video with a degree of circumspection if it is asserted to be representative of ancient average die life achieved in a hot striking technique (as appears was the case).

Notice also that in most video clips (on YouTube) of fakers using hand striking techniques they heat the planchet for an extended period in a furnace and then with a blow torch prior to the application and striking of the reverse die - for good reason and with ancient precedent!

[Bdsn]

I was wondering about that too.  They seem to know what they are doing, but heating up the flans makes more sense to me.


Justin

[Steff V]

I have one question: the method they use to make their coins (the dies were they pour the bronze in) would leave marks on the edges, right ? Because they have to remove metal and as far is a known ancient coins don't have such marks on the edges....

Anyone ?

[Pekka K]

I think they have. Here one of the same type
used in demostration:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-40093

Pekka K

[Steff V]

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-40093

On this picture you can clearly see the marks... But what about athenian owls (the other video) ? I just don't understand it...

[cmcdon0923]

One thing I noticed is that the dies they are using appear to be made of steel....or at least some other type of ferrous metal.  The ancients did not have steel.  I was under the impression that most ancient dies were cut from bronze.

So if they are using steel, then their die wear analysis is completely useles.

[Steff V]

One thing I noticed is that the dies they are using appear to be made of steel....or at least some other type of ferrous metal.  The ancients did not have steel.  I was under the impression that most ancient dies were cut from bronze.

So if they are using steel, then their die wear analysis is completely useles.

I think they used both bronze as iron dies in ancient times.

[Mat]

Thanks for the links, really enjoyed them

[cmcdon0923]

I know the Romans used iron dies....not sure exactly when that began....but we are talking about coinages that go back to the 4th century BC or so for the series in question here.   

Is there any evidence (e.g., extant dies or texts) specific to the either the Athenian or Ptolemaic series ??

[Robert_Brenchley]

If the Romans used iron dies, the metal would have been much softer than moderns steel.

[cmcdon0923]

If the Romans used iron dies, the metal would have been much softer than moderns steel.

Agreed.....but iron itself is still harder than brass/bronze, so even an early iron die would be expected to have a longer production life.

[Masis]

Thank you Andrew, a quality and educational televisual treat!