Rome's Colosseum Collapsing Amid Restoration Delays

[Lloyd Taylor]

Not quite 2,000 years old, more like 40-50 years (another reconstruction that brings us to the point of Disneyland rather than Archeology).... The arch at the far left is the only one which escaped destruction in 1945.

However, the case for more Tolls and increased road user charges, provided all the funds received are directed to infrastructure maintenance is well made.

[Robert_Brenchley]

There are plenty of older bridges than that, but not many that old and that complex!

Here's a Mycenaean one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkadiko_bridge

[Lloyd Taylor]

They knew how to build them in days gone by and that is why we have such a bountiful legacy. Leave well enough alone and don't let modern archeological conservators and engineers near them unless it becomes absolutely essential. At the same time ring fence them (metaphorically) from unnecessary usage and pillage. Look and marvel but don't touch - contrast this requirement with the current approach to see a large part of the problem. The approach to be pursued is as much a part of asset management as is capital expenditure!

Thus the issue moves beyond the naively simplistic question and answer of $'s and funding, or the Bono solution as I like to term it.

[SC]

There are many options out there and not enough are being explored. 

Bono-esque World Management obviously will not do (aside from the fact it is diametrically opposed to the current philisophical trend among many of the countries in question which is more more "give us everything that may have been made on our soil" and less "let the world own it"). 

Expecting countries with more money and less ruins to pay is also not likely.  As people have pointed out there are other pressing needs for taxpayers moneys these days.  And besides, who is to say that tax-payer money from my native Ontario should go to Greece or Rome one day and not stay local to preserve say the recently discovered paleolithic camps near Ottawa, or the remains of woodland Indian villages, or early settler homesteads, or former mining ghost towns, or the 1000 years + old Serpent Mounds, or the huge former WWII POW camps in northern Ontario?

I don't think that claiming we can't "ask the Italians to be less Italian" is fair or accurate.  The facts show that Italy is currently more broke, less transparent and more corrupt than most countries in Europe.  But this is not an Italian trait.  Italy is less broke, more transparent and less corrupt than the majority of countries in the wider world.  It is also far more transparent and less corrupt than say the USA in the early boom-days of capitalism 100+ years ago.  There are a great many Italians horrified at the current system.

To me the real parallels are to look at how poorer countries manage.  I mentioned Jordan before.  What about dirt poor and barely reconstructed Cambodia that nevertheless works to rehabilitate its sites.  Yes there are partnerships with other countries and institutions but the first step seems to be taking responsibility ones self and then seeking help.

Shawn

[Andrew McCabe]

I don't think that claiming we can't "ask the Italians to be less Italian" is fair or accurate.  The facts show that Italy is currently more broke, less transparent and more corrupt than most countries in Europe.  But this is not an Italian trait.  Italy is less broke, more transparent and less corrupt than the majority of countries in the wider world.  It is also far more transparent and less corrupt than say the USA in the early boom-days of capitalism 100+ years ago.  There are a great many Italians horrified at the current system.

To me the real parallels are to look at how poorer countries manage....

Very well said: you crafted better words to encapsulate the issue than I could find. I've heard enough about pillaging from Cambodia to leave me unsure whether that country is a great model. But your advice to see how countries in a worse brokeness/transparency nexus can still manage some things well is a great mental model.

It reminds me of how some African countries are much better managing the poaching/conservation dilemma than others; literally turning poachers into gamekeepers, conservationists, tour-guides and hotel employees is the way to go though hard work. It is such hard work that most have not managed that transition.

Could we adopt the same approach on antiquities: give the local tomb robbers some training in antiquities and archaeological conservation, pay them a decent salary, an encourage them to continue doing exactly what they were good at but in a transparent manner?

[benito]

" Could we adopt the same approach on antiquities: give the local tomb robbers some training in antiquities and archaeological conservation, pay them a decent salary, an encourage them to continue doing exactly what they were good at but in a transparent manner?"
Are you mad?
Benedicto Tombarolo.Son of the great Pietro Tombarolo ( 869 Etruscan tombs in his pouch ).

[Lloyd Taylor]

I agree with Benito on this point. The poacher turned gamekeeper approach only works once the resource has been exploited to the point of extinction. At which point it becomes more profitable for the poachers to become gamekeepers.... by which time it is all too late!

[SC]

The poachers as game keepers model is not totally mad.

It is mad to assume that you will lure a professional tomb robber to a carreer as ticket taker but such people are not the entire, or I suspect the main problem.

Much damage is more casual.  In parts of the Middle East culturally, though not legally, the local tribe believes that it owns everything in its territory. 

Thus there are two bedouin tribes that "own" Petra - I forget the details which I once heard but one "owns" Petra and one "owns" one of the access points.  If such groups are ignored when the State makes its plans they will loot what they believe is theirs.  However, if they are given employment - not the jobs that require specific qualifications that they may not have but all of the "unskilled" jobs - and the right to sell food, water, souveniers, etc. they are often won over as allies.

I remember visiting Pella, a fantastic site overlooking the upper Jordan.  When I visited it it was in a restricted military zone and saw no tourists or foriegn visitors.  Nada.  There were no digs going on, no museum, just a gate house.  However, there were a couple of locals employed sell tickets and otherwise stare off into the distance.  With entrance fees of about $1 and no visitors the State obviously lost money on these guys salaries but it bought protection and security - not so much their vigilance but paying into the local community.

Anyway it obviously won't fix all ills, nor was Andrew claiming it would, but it is yet another of the many models of archeological asset management to explore.

Shawn

[Andrew McCabe]

" Could we adopt the same approach on antiquities: give the local tomb robbers some training in antiquities and archaeological conservation, pay them a decent salary, an encourage them to continue doing exactly what they were good at but in a transparent manner?"
Are you mad?
Benedicto Tombarolo.Son of the great Pietro Tombarolo ( 869 Etruscan tombs in his pouch ).

I was actually thinking of the so-called Tombarolo's when I wrote this. Not mad, but aware that if a different incentive is not offered to Benedicto and Pietro, then nothing changes.

Maybe pay them a huge salary to find, help excavate, but not rob the tombs.

Dunno. Whatever works.

[pitbull]

To state the obvious, if you try to do that you will get 100 more tomb robbers and the like, waiting for the same treatment and 100 more after that.

In fact , by encouraging more people to rob tombs it may actually make the problem worse, not better.

Gary

[benito]

" Could we adopt the same approach on antiquities: give the local tomb robbers some training in antiquities and archaeological conservation, pay them a decent salary, an encourage them to continue doing exactly what they were good at but in a transparent manner?"
Are you mad?
Benedicto Tombarolo.Son of the great Pietro Tombarolo ( 869 Etruscan tombs in his pouch ).

I was actually thinking of the so-called Tombarolo's when I wrote this. Not mad, but aware that if a different incentive is not offered to Benedicto and Pietro, then nothing changes.

Maybe pay them a huge salary to find, help excavate, but not rob the tombs.

Dunno. Whatever works.

Pietro ,alas,broke his neck when the roof of a tomb he was going to enter collapsed. Benedicto could consider that kind of offer now that times are getting  tougher,the US museums ask more questions,and no one believes the trick of an old collection,English German or W.. Life is getting complicated for the Tombarolo's family and colleagues.
What salary would  you propose ?.
B T.

[Andrew McCabe]

What salary would  you propose ?.

How about 20% of finds (excepting national treasures) free to market to whatever ancient auction house one wishes, export licence included. In the specific case of Benedicto perhaps a salary and some archaeological training might be included. Or, lock him up and throw away the key.

I bet that would be more lucrative than they currently get through non-legal trade - the excavator typically gets 10% or so with the rest being swallowed up by crooked middlemen etc. The criminal element also disappears.

I doubt it could be enacted in Italy but the English model where finders get 50% of value shared with landowner - but only provided it was not a dead of night process, was agreed in advance with the landowner, was not on an already defined ancient monument site (no prizes should be got for finding something you can find on a map) and was reported promptly and properly allowing proper excavation. Italy is different given the scale of antiquities but I'm sure some arrangement could be made.

To state the obvious, if you try to do that you will get 100 more tomb robbers and the like, waiting for the same treatment and 100 more after that.

In fact , by encouraging more people to rob tombs it may actually make the problem worse, not better.

Gary

The point isn't to encourage tomb robbing. It is to encourage properly controlled excavation with 100% reporting. That's what matters. It doesn't matter if those involved get a financial reward. This is a pact with the devil after all.