Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. All Items Purchased From Forum Ancient Coins Are Guaranteed Authentic For Eternity!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Internet challenged? We Are Happy To Take Your Order Over The Phone 252-646-1958 Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: Are wooden toothpicks guaranteed safe from damaging patina?  (Read 3804 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mr. Earl

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Are wooden toothpicks guaranteed safe from damaging patina?
« on: January 26, 2012, 12:05:27 pm »
Hello all,

I am brand new to the hobby of ancient coins and have a beginner's question.

I purchased a lot of 50 uncleaned coins a couple of months ago from an eBay seller. I paid $60 for the 50 coins, and I guess the old adage that "you get what you pay for" is pretty accurate. I've been working pretty steadily at the lot; however, of the 50 coins, I'm guessing that only a half dozen or so will finally produce a coin that can be identified.

So, I thought I would try a smaller lot but higher quality. So today, I ordered one of the 5-coin lots that the Forum Ancient Coins offers for their Never-Ending Cleaning Contest.

So, given that background, here's my question:

Am I safe from damaging the patina if I only use wooden toothpicks to pick at the encrusted dirt and matter that is on a bronze coin?

So far, that is all I've used on my first cheapo lot. I've used distilled water for soaking the coins and then pick at them every day or two or three with wooden toothpicks while using a loupe. (A bit hard on the eyes; I'm increasingly thinking that an inspection microscope would be a great asset.)

I don't think I have the eyes or steadiness of hand to ever consider a dental pick, but was wondering if one could still damage the patina with too aggressive use of a wooden toothpick.

Thanks for any answers! I look forward to learning more about ancient coins, their cleaning and identification from the community here.

Regards,
Earl

Ghengis_Jon

  • Guest
Re: Are wooden toothpicks guaranteed safe from damaging patina?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2012, 01:31:40 pm »
There are only 3 things guaranteed in life - death, taxes and the boundless idiocy of politicians.

Toothpicks should be fine.  One rarely comes across a patina so soft that a toothpick will damage.  Bamboo skewers (as in shish-kabobs) work nicely and can easily be sharpened.  Remember that when scraping (with any instrument), use the side of the point, not direct pressure.

Practice with your fleabay crap before tackling Joe's coins.  The skill you acquire there is well worth the $60 so you don't damage a 'real' coin!  ;D

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: Are wooden toothpicks guaranteed safe from damaging patina?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2012, 03:27:18 pm »
Toothpicks are fine for some uncleaneds, useless for others, e.g. those with hard encrustations. Most of the uncleaned from Ebay are not the kind that can be cleaned with toothpicks or at all. You need to learn to recognize which type of coin can be cleaned with a toothpick. Perhaps you could just post some pictures of select coins, there are some skilled cleaners here.

In the cheap Ebay lots I found (some 5 years ago though I doubt it is much different now) quite a lot of coins with soft green patinas that can easily be damaged with a tooth pick or brush or even with your fingernail, leaving you with a thin and featureless bronze disk. Learning to spot (and not buy) uncleanable coins will save you a lot of frustration.
Andreas Reich

Offline Mr. Earl

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Are wooden toothpicks guaranteed safe from damaging patina?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2012, 09:41:24 pm »
Thank you, Ghengis Jon and areich for your advice. I will continue with the toothpicks and try the bamboo skewers as well.

Do you think plastic toothpicks would also be safe? I would think they might keep a finer point a bit better, perhaps useful for cleaning in and around letters. But I have never seen mention of them in coin cleaning discussions, so there is probably a reason.

I will continue to practice on my eBay coins. It seems I learn a bit more each day as I either clean coins or read about them from books and online.

I am certainly looking forward to my order of coins from the FORVM. Once I receive them, I will post some photographs of them, both "before" and "in process."

Thanks again!

Regards,
Earl

Offline SC

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • IMPERATOR
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 6070
    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
Re: Are wooden toothpicks guaranteed safe from damaging patina?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2012, 04:53:14 am »
Earl,

As other have said toothpicks are usually safe but nothing is guaranteed.  I have many of those coins Ariech wrote about with the soft green patina which can be damaged even by rubbing your finger on it.

If it helps here is how I think of it:

The stuff that has adhered to the surface of the coin - dirt, dust, sand, concretized encrustations, - has a certain hardness.  This will vary for each coin but you can quickly learn the general groups. 

The patina on the surface of the coin itself has its own hardness.  Many patinas are quite hard and firm but they range down to some that are not much more than a layer of soft fine powder.

Each tool has its own harndness.  In generally ascending scale - skin, soft toothbrush, fingernail, hard toothbrush, silver brush, soft brass brush, toothpick, plastic (actually plastics vary - some softer than this and some harder), bamboo skewers, not-so-soft brass brush, brass pick, x-acto knife, steel pick, steel scalpel.  [Some readers my quibble with the exact order but it gives you a rough idea].

Of course you have to factor in pressure and technique.  You can clean many patinas with a hard steel scalpel if you are careful and you can even damage a hard patina with a softer brass pick if you push too hard.

Ideally you need a tool that is harder than the stuff adhering to the coin but softer than the actual patina on the surface.

If your coin fits into this category you are usually in a good space.  You just start with soft tool and work your way up the hardness scale (obviously with experience you will get to know right away what to start with).  You end up with a tool that is removing the dirt and not harming the patina.

Sadly, most cases don't work like this.  Instead the hardness required to remove the dirt and stuff is such that it could harm the patina too.  Either the dirt is very hard or the patina is more susceptible.

So you either try to soften the dirt and stuff such as via soaks in distilled water or you use hard tools with certain techniques.  So one person will look at a coin and decide they will keep soaking it and only use toothpicks and just wait until the dirt gets soft enough for the toothpicks to work.  Another person might instead take steel scalpel and pick and work under magnification to pick and shave away the hard dirt.  The first person risks waiting a long time and maybe never having the dirt soften.   The second person risks harming the patina if they slip up.

The choice is personal.  But as G Jon says you can use your not-so-nice coins for learning.  Try some of the more aggressive techniques on coins that are otherwise hopeless.  Search for threads about pin-vises and scalepls or x-acto knifes to learn about them.  You can then stick with the milder methods on any coins that show potential and move up as you get more comfortable.

Shawn

Oh, yah, and as Areich noted some coins are just hopeless.  Sadly the less reputable dealers knowingly pass these coins on in the cheaper lots.


 
SC
(Shawn Caza, Ottawa)

Offline areich

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 8706
    • Ancient Greek and Roman Coins, featuring BMC online and other books
Re: Are wooden toothpicks guaranteed safe from damaging patina?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2012, 08:43:05 am »
Very informational Shawn!
Because of these problems you have to make sure your cheap coins are useful for practising on. If they're all either worn completely blank or have this very soft patina you will learn nothing from them. If you're new to cleaning you may think you're doing something terribly wrong when in truth you never had a chance.

I personally think uncleaneds are mostly overpriced but there is a difference between the average Ebay junk and what an honest seller will give you. You may end up with a coin that you could have bought cheaper in a condition comparable to your self-cleaned coin (or better) but you will have learned something about cleaning and hopefully had fun.

I would set the contest entry from FORVM aside for now if I were you and see if FORVM has some regular uncleaneds for sale. They may be the same but going from zero to taking part in the contest is a little too ambitious in my opinion.
Andreas Reich

Offline Mr. Earl

  • Legionary
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Are wooden toothpicks guaranteed safe from damaging patina?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 10:22:50 am »
Well, my simple little question has generated some great advice. Thanks, Shawn, for the detailed description of the various tools available and their relative hardness and utility. I think I will stick with wood instruments (toothpicks and skewers, for now). That way, any slip-ups will be relatively benign. So far, I haven't run into any soft patinas that can be easily damaged. But now that I'm forewarned, I'll start out carefully with fresh coins, even if with just a toothpick.

I think I'll heed areich's advice and not immediately jump into more expensive coins until I have practiced some more on my cheapo lot. I will say that even the cheapo coins are interesting to work on. After a long and frustrating day at work, coming home and just sitting at the table and poking at 2000 year old dirt with a toothpick is pretty relaxing! My wife will walk into the kitchen and think I've got my head down on the table in exhaustion or despair, when I'm really just face-to-face with a coin, toothpick and a loupe!

I look forward to more conversations here on the forum as I learn more.

Thanks all!

Regards,
Earl

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity