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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Roman Coins (Moderator: Severus_Alexander)  |  Topic: Corn ears continued 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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BiancasDad
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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2011, 09:13:27 am »

Remember though, the Romans aren't doing the modern day attributions for us, and it is clear that their use of the term "cornucopia" may be remarkably different than a modern definition which encompasses a broader spectrum
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PeterD
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« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2011, 11:59:07 am »

I would imagine that the Poaceae grass is called 'cornucopia' because of it's horn-like shape. No connection to Roman iconography apart from that.
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Peter, London

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« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2011, 01:56:37 pm »

Remember though, the Romans aren't doing the modern day attributions for us, and it is clear that their use of the term "cornucopia" may be remarkably different than a modern definition which encompasses a broader spectrum

My point exactly. The botanical name of the Poaceae grass is (part of) the broader and modern spectrum. As Peter points out, there is no ancient connection to the grass.

There is considerable evidence for a connection for the "horn of plenty" if the etymology does suffice. Pliny, in the natural history, preface 24. writes "κέρας Αμάλθειας, quod copiae cornu (volebant intellegi)", indicating clearly the relationship between the "horn of Amaltheia" and the term "Cornu Copiae"(although in the rather interesting context of a book with that title, but failing to deliver on the promise and being actually 'empty' of worthwhile content); Plautus in Pseudolus 671 writes "cornu copiaest ubi inest quidquid volo" ("it's a cornucopia, in which resides everything I desire"). You'll find lots of illustrations not only on coins, but also on larger imagery like frescoes showing the cornucopia, clearly as a horn filled and often overflowing with fruit or plants, in the hands of a number of deities connected, directly or indirectly, with plenty.

So, the definition of the "horn of the goat Amaltheia which provides for people's needs" is not only appropriate to Annona, it is also quite narrow as a spectrum.

In either case, it does not have anything to do with the original discussion of this thread...  

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benito
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quousque tandem abutere Sadigh pecunia nostra


« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2011, 02:18:38 pm »

"κέρας Αμάλθειας, quod copiae cornu . It doesn"t stablish a relation between the horn of Amalthea  and the cornucopiae. It states that the horn of Amalthea ("κέρας Αμάλθειας) is the cornucopiae . Quod copiae cornu. Which is the horn of abundance.
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BiancasDad
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« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2011, 02:47:38 pm »

Gosh Benito, I have enough trouble speaking English, stop confusing me....lol

I have a saying that my wife loves, "I'm a lot dumber in person"  Grin
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benito
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« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2011, 02:51:55 pm »

Sorry for the confussion. Going to a coffee shop nearby to smoke and eat some grass. No horns there.  Grin
Tomorrow some information on grass and the Romans.
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« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2011, 03:13:26 pm »

In Forum's catalog we say grain, heads of grain, wreath of grain, stalks of grain, etc.  If I knew one grain from another, I would probably try to be more specific.  We use American spelling too (most of the time).  That is what is comfortable for me.  If someone wants to call it corn or spell color with a letter U, I don't care. 
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« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2011, 04:55:33 pm »

"κέρας Αμάλθειας, quod copiae cornu . It doesn"t stablish a relation between the horn of Amalthea  and the cornucopiae. It states that the horn of Amalthea ("κέρας Αμάλθειας) is the cornucopiae . Quod copiae cornu. Which is the horn of abundance.

From what I remember from logic, equality is a type of relation (identity relation).

Though admittedly not of relationship as I wrote.  Grin

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mwilson603
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« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2011, 06:50:10 pm »

Ok, following the advice of asking a "straw" poll, I asked each of the 10 people in my office today what they believed was meant when the word "corn" was used.  3 of them stated maize initially, and it transpires that they all either currently or in the past have raised chickens.  1 had no idea at all, and made a remark about his mother always moaning about "her corns", and 6 talked about sweetcorn or cornflakes before 2 of them then mentioned maize. All of them thought that I must have been smoking some of the grass that Benito said he was going to eat for asking such a bizarre question.
Not exactly scientific, but no one said they thought "corn" meant any kind of grain.  I would be interested in hearing what other polls uncovered.
(I did wonder that maybe it could be a regional understanding of the word, however I was raised in the south west of England, live now in the north of England now, and the office is based near London.  The 10 people in the office included 1 person from Wales, 1 from Scotland, and the rest from mainly the south east of England.  Also, for interest, within the group, the educational mix ranges from no significant education after dropping out with dyslexia, to one person claiming a phd in Computer Science.)
regards
Mark
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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2011, 10:47:44 am »

I was being a bit flippant in suggesting that a group of people could be asked for their definition of 'corn'. The word is not exactly one that would be used in every-day conversation. However, 'cornfield' is very much in use. Try googling the word. There is a bakery, a restaurant, a school, a care home using the name, and a seed supplier that sells cornfield seeds. There are paintings, other than Constable's with cornfield in the title.

Then there is the headline from a UK daily newspaper "Cocaine-addled driver destroys entire cornfield on run from police"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-464320/Cocaine-addled-driver-destroys-entire-cornfield-run-police.html
Below is an aerial picture of the said field, which is in the Netherlands. Quite amusing actually.

Or the British Museum site talking about a painting:
"Samuel Palmer, Cornfield by Moonlight, with the Evening Star, watercolour and gouache, with brown ink, varnished
This is one of the largest and finest 'moonlight' paintings from Palmer's time at Shoreham. It shows a man with a smock, broad hat and staff walking with his dog through a cornfield that has already been cut and stacked in sheaves."
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Peter, London

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« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2011, 12:02:06 pm »

Hi,

Perhaps----corn is what grows in the corn field where the corn poppy grows. See pic below.

It is also what the Roman 'Corn' ships carried long before maize was discovered by the old world.

But perhaps the etymology of the word 'corn' would give an added clarification. In languages other than English. If someone with the necessary savvy may look it up. Also the name for 'maize', the new world corn (Indian corn according to the encyclopedia).

regards

cr


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« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2011, 04:05:54 pm »

The 'corn poppy' ('poppy' or 'field poppy' here in its native haunts) gets its name from the corn, not vice versa.
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« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2011, 04:21:47 pm »

Hi,

Perhaps----corn is what grows in the corn field where the corn poppy grows. See pic below.

It is also what the Roman 'Corn' ships carried long before maize was discovered by the old world.

But perhaps the etymology of the word 'corn' would give an added clarification. In languages other than English. If someone with the necessary savvy may look it up. Also the name for 'maize', the new world corn (Indian corn according to the encyclopedia).

regards

cr


Corn Poppy: a poppy Papaver rhoeas, that has bright red flowers and grows in cornfields. Since World War it has been the symbol of fallen soldiers.

Corn etymology: Old English corn; related to old Norse, Old High German corn, Gothic kaurn, Latin granum,  Sanskrit jirna.

Maize comes from native American? Zea mays
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Peter, London

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« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2011, 06:20:11 am »

It's interesting to note what corn translates to in Italian:


s. (Agr) cereale; granaglie; grano, frumento; (scozz) avena; (am) granturco, frumentone, mais
 
v. (Gastr) conservare sotto sale, conservare in salamoia


I'd be curious to know what the descriptions on coins say in Italian or Spanish since they derive from latin. I think the only confussion is in the English.
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« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2011, 07:06:01 am »

I think the confusion is in modern American English usage, where the word corn refers specifically to varieties of the New World cereal crop Zea mays.  before that it was a general English term for any grain crop.
I wonder when and why corn in the American version of the language became less general.
Anyway it is almost senseless to argue the meanings of "common names".  They vary so much geographically and temporally as to become useless when it comes to discussing specific organisms.
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mwilson603
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« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2011, 08:50:11 am »

I wonder when and why corn in the American version of the language became less general.

Interesting thought

Anyway it is almost senseless to argue the meanings of "common names".  They vary so much geographically and temporally (sic.) as to become useless when it comes to discussing specific organisms.

Ah, but we haven't really been discussing common names.  More the modern usage of an older English collective noun.  Smiley

regards

Mark
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PeterD
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« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2011, 09:59:32 am »

This is what Wikipedia says:

"The term "maize" derives from the Spanish form of the indigenous Taíno word maiz for the plant. This was the term used in the United Kingdom and Ireland, where it is now usually called "sweet corn", the most common form of the plant known to people there. Sweet corn is harvested earlier and eaten as a vegetable rather than a grain.
 
Outside the British Isles, another common term for maize is "corn". This was originally the English term for any cereal crop. In North America, its meaning has been restricted since the 19th century to maize, as it was shortened from "Indian corn". The term Indian corn now refers specifically to multi-colored "field corn" (flint corn) cultivars."
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Peter, London

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« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2011, 08:37:01 am »

@ Robert Brenchley.   Hi Robert; of course it is as you said, and not vice-versa.

As for the etymology of the word, I had also in mind the Semitic languages.

Qamh (or Kamh) = corn (any connection, other than referring to the same thing?). Qamh is a generic name for all the wheats.

The word turns up in a number of place-names with special relation to corn. See 'Menia el qamh' ; 'Abil el qamh', plus others.

rgds

cr

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« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2011, 03:37:43 pm »

There could easily be a connection between the two words. The word originates from proto-Indo-European, and that offers scope for all sorts of developments in various directions.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=corn
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« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2011, 04:45:57 pm »

I live in Maine USA we grow two types of corn cow corn for feed and sweet corn to eat. So to me when you say corn ears I think corn either type. Today In the US you could say ethinol and I would think of corn, because so much is made from corn. But that is my opinion. Europeans have know about corn since the 1400s so it is not to hard to see how they may confuse the two when they did not grow the crop.
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