Author Topic: I like coins (Read 5754 times)

Minos · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2011, 01:32:38 pm »

That's not a coin, it's a flying saucer

Hugely impressive

benito · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2011, 01:35:43 pm »

Size and weight please

mauseus · « **Reply #3 on:** July 17, 2011, 01:36:10 pm »

Hi,

That is rather an impressive bronze! A new purchase?

It was good to meet you at Moneta Britannia 2011 and the York coin fair the following day. By the way did you see the cast bronze for sale on the mezzanine level at the show, the vendor was uncertain as to its authenticity?

Regards,

Mauseus

Aarmale · « **Reply #4 on:** July 17, 2011, 02:42:39 pm »

Thats ridiculous

! I want one!

Randygeki(h2) · « **Reply #5 on:** July 17, 2011, 03:29:57 pm »

Andrew McCabe · « **Reply #6 on:** July 17, 2011, 04:38:41 pm »

Quote from: Aarmale on July 17, 2011, 02:42:39 pm

Thats ridiculous ! I want one!

Well, I was going to say some things earlier, but the picture needed no words. Photographed today, on top of an open page of Ezekiel Spanheim's 1706 dissertation on ancient coins (an 18 pound monster of a book), this is a completely typical coin (I've dozens of Aes Grave) on a completely typical coining Sunday with a typical book open on the table. I've replayed this exact scene hundreds if not thousands of times, with different coins and different books, albeit sometimes with smaller silvery coins and more modern print!

An always-great day in numismatics.

NB the open page of Spanheim is discussing the Ficus Ruminalis, a wild fig tree on the Palatine Hill in ancient Rome near the Lupercal on the Palatine. This tree was said to be sacred to the goddess Rumina. It is also the spot where tradition said the trough containing Romulus and Remus landed on the banks of the Tiber and were reared by a she-wolf. Tradition said that this tree was removed by the augur Attus Navius and thenceforth stood on the Comitium. Of course it is pictured on various coins such as on that of Sextus Pompeius Fostulus. I've just read my daughter a bedtime story (well, given the time, a couple of hours ago, I'm not such a useless dad) and it strikes me that nothing in the modern lexicon of kids stories (Gruffaloes etc) beats the bed-time stories available to the ancient Romans.

Just in case someone missed the point: I like coins.

Mark Z · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2011, 05:13:31 pm »

How about the reverse?

mz

Andrew McCabe · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2011, 05:15:59 pm »

Quote from: Mark Z on July 17, 2011, 05:13:31 pm

How about the reverse?

mz

It's the same as the obverse (really!). This is called the Apollo-Apollo series for a good reason.

curtislclay · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2011, 05:17:49 pm »

Andrew,

But why the association of this particular coin with this page of Spanheim? No fig tree on that reverse, right?

I also have to say that your Latin has made great progress, if you can now read Spanheim, whose style is rather contorted and difficult!

Curtis

Andrew McCabe · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2011, 05:23:49 pm »

Quote from: curtislclay on July 17, 2011, 05:17:49 pm

Andrew,

But why the association of this particular coin with this page of Spanheim? No fig tree on that reverse, right?

I also have to say that your Latin has made great progress, if you can now read Spanheim, whose style is rather contorted and difficiult!

Curtis

Absolutely no association, except the coincidental association of a story of early Rome with an early Roman coin (275BC). I worked on some hard numismatic research in the afternoon, and after several hours took a break during which I browsed Spanheim for relaxation using my schoolboy Latin, I happened on that page, the references to the foundation story caught my eye and I scanned what I could read about that tree. As is often the case, there was a coin at hand, indeed that Aes Grave was being juggled in my fingers as I did so. It was a felicitous moment and it demanded a photo.

NB: point of clarification: I cannot "read" Spanheim's Latin. But I can browse it as I can many European languages, and recognise the subjects being discussed. Sometimes I need to consult Fulvius Orsini or Echkel in anger - i.e. I really need to know what they said. In such cases I scan to the relevant section, then complete with the aid of e.g. google translate (does Latin too!).

NNB: It seems this is my 1000th post. Note to self: If I spent less time chatting online and more time on numismatic research I think my various resarch collaborators would be very grateful.

curtislclay · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2011, 05:58:51 pm »

Andrew,

Thanks for the explanation!

Since google translate makes gobbeldygook of other languages, I'd hate to see what it does to Eckhel or Orsini! If you have examples where you think a computer translation really helped you to correct understanding, I'd be interested to see them.

I'd be glad to translate brief sections of Eckhel or Orsini for you, should the need arise. Spanheim too, though his discussions tend to go on for page after folio page!

Curtis

Aarmale · « **Reply #12 on:** July 17, 2011, 06:09:38 pm »

Quote from: curtislclay on July 17, 2011, 05:58:51 pm

Since google translate makes gobbeldygook of other languages, I'd hate to see what it does to Eckhel or Orsini!

Challenge accepted.

Quote from: Doctrina nvmorvm vetervm conscripta a Josepho Eckhel

Magnum est confidentiae, aut potius temeritatis argumentum, cum audent Musae interpellare Principem, quem propter recentia, et continuata Augustae domus funera, incumbentem humeris in vastissimi imperii aditu curarum molem, et exortum recens cum gente nuper amica bellum nonnisi difficilem adflictumque necesse fuit augurari. Sed abstersit audaciae invidiam una populorum omnium vox, quae TE in ipso doloris cursu omnia magno animo complexum reipublicae negotia, mitem, placidumque, et quod maximum estPrincipum ornamentum, humanitatis ac moderationis amicum incredibili cum voluptate, et admiratione promulgavit. Nimirum hos TIBI mores, hunc animum dedit primum juventutis TV A.E rudimentum, cum in castris ageres commilitonem, eadem cum infimo quoque participares pericula, et incommoda, et communes hominum calamitates ad TE quoque pertinere captis ipse experimentis intelligeres.

is with Google translate:

Quote from: Google

Confidence is a great thing, or rather rashness argument, with the Muses dare to interrupt the Prince, who, on account of the recent, and the continued deaths of Augusta, the house, engaged in the vast empire on their shoulders the mass entrance of cares, it sprang up fresh and friendly with the family lately only difficult adflictumque the war it was necessary to estimate. But one of the people wiped off the daring of all envy, a voice that you generously share everything, the course of pain in the very complex affairs of the republic, gentle, and peaceful, and this is the greatest estPrincipum ornament, a friend of humanity and moderation with incredible pleasure, and admiration promulgated. Of course you these manners, this youth TV AE mind gave the first attempt, I was doing with their comrade in the camp, the same as the lowest of shared dangers, and inconveniences, and the common calamities of men was captured, he also belongs to the TE experiments understanding.

How wrong (or right?) is it?

curtislclay · « **Reply #13 on:** July 17, 2011, 06:16:01 pm »

Gobbeldygook, as expected. You have no idea what Eckhel is saying, right?

I'll work on a correct translation, but it will take a while. It will be worlds different!

Andrew McCabe · « **Reply #14 on:** July 17, 2011, 06:51:48 pm »

Quote from: curtislclay on July 17, 2011, 05:58:51 pm

Andrew,

Thanks for the explanation!

Since google translate makes gobbeldygook of other languages, I'd hate to see what it does to Eckhel or Orsini! If you have examples where you think a computer translation really helped you to correct understanding, I'd be interested to see them.

I'd be glad to translate brief sections of Eckhel or Orsini for you, should the need arise. Spanheim too, though his discussions tend to go on for page after folio page!
Curtis

Typically I'm seeking references that explain coin types, where I already know the context pretty fully, and may have a reference in Smyth which says "Echkel says that ...". And it's usually for casual interest/entertainment purposes so I don't like to put others to work. I find the passage I want, scan it in Latin to get its gist as well I can, then if there is a phrase that I want to know, I pick out that phrase (all by itself), making sure it has a verb and a couple of nouns (subject, object) if at all possible, and push that into google to see if it helps. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. I'm thus not demanding a lot from google, not really much more than to function as a dictionary which also recognises basic sentence structure. But it helps that I can also recognise basic structure and a fair smattering of vocab. I actually got an A for Latin in my school leaving exams though that seems centuries ago.

I deal with Spanish and Italian in exactly the same way. French and German I can read as-is, at least after a fashion.

It's odd but I did not expect this sort of discussion to arise from my original pictorial post. I thought people might say "I like coins too" and show me a picture ...

Andrew McCabe · « **Reply #15 on:** July 17, 2011, 07:01:38 pm »

Quote from: curtislclay on July 17, 2011, 05:58:51 pm

Andrew,

Thanks for the explanation!

Since google translate makes gobbeldygook of other languages, I'd hate to see what it does to Eckhel or Orsini! If you have examples where you think a computer translation really helped you to correct understanding, I'd be interested to see them.

I'd be glad to translate brief sections of Eckhel or Orsini for you, should the need arise. Spanheim too, though his discussions tend to go on for page after folio page!
Curtis

Curtis

My manners escaped me, of course I'm grateful for your offer to translate. I'd like to note for the wider Forum listeners that last year when I needed some seriously accurate translations for many small passages for my new web page on plated denarii, I asked, and you helped, and other scholars helped too.

Andrew

curtislclay · « **Reply #16 on:** July 17, 2011, 07:41:43 pm »

Google's version, copied from above:

Confidence is a great thing, or rather rashness argument, with the Muses dare to interrupt the Prince, who, on account of the recent, and the continued deaths of Augusta, the house, engaged in the vast empire on their shoulders the mass entrance of cares, it sprang up fresh and friendly with the family lately only difficult adflictumque the war it was necessary to estimate. But one of the people wiped off the daring of all envy, a voice that you generously share everything, the course of pain in the very complex affairs of the republic, gentle, and peaceful, and this is the greatest estPrincipum ornament, a friend of humanity and moderation with incredible pleasure, and admiration promulgated. Of course you these manners, this youth TV AE mind gave the first attempt, I was doing with their comrade in the camp, the same as the lowest of shared dangers, and inconveniences, and the common calamities of men was captured, he also belongs to the TE experiments understanding.

My paraphrase:

It might seem overconfident, or even rash, for an academic author to dare to address a ruler, who would have to be expected to be afflicted and otherwise occupied because of the recent and repeated deaths within the imperial family, because of the burden of obligations resting on his shoulders after his accession to the throne of an immense empire, and because of the recent outbreak of war with a country that had only yesterday been our ally. But that charge of audacity is refuted by the unanimous voice of all of your subjects, who with incredible pleasure and admiration declare that in the very course of your mourning you have magnanimously embraced all of the affairs of state, and that you are calm, controlled, and, what is the highest praise for a prince, a friend of humanity and moderation. Indeed it was the earliest experiences of your childhood that gave you that character and those qualities, when you adopted the role of a soldier in the military camp, and participated in the same dangers and hardships as the humblest private, so coming to understand through your own experience that the normal calamities of manknd were yours too.

slokind · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2011, 04:42:39 pm »

Wonderful, Curtis! That's as good as any late-18c Preface, or the like. When Eckhel wrote his Latin, he also was thinking in the cultivated, nay even courtly and Jesuit, too, German of his own time. It's as if you had given us an English such as Eckhel, had he been English, might have written in a Dedication or Preface.
Those today who have trouble with Eckhel's Latin (though they read Tacitus quite easily) might have trouble with its English equivalent. I had students who disliked reading anything other than recent American.
Pat L.

Steve E · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2011, 05:34:01 pm »

Quote from: benito on July 17, 2011, 01:35:43 pm

Size and weight please

Ditto

How hard are these to come by in this size ?

~Steve

curtislclay · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2011, 06:06:29 pm »

Pat,

Thanks for the compliment, though I think my version is rough and could be improved in many places!

Eckhel's Latin is actually much easier to read than Tacitus, in my opinion!

Searching for a test passage, Aarmale apparently went to the absolute beginning of the work and found the dedication, which is of course more rhetorical and less numismatic than the great body of the work. But I hope he got the point that computer translation programs often produce total gibberish and completely obscure the author's meaning!

A little background, from Wikipedia:

The emperor addressed is Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor/Emperor of Austria from 1792 to 1835.

The recent deaths in the imperial family were those of Francis' uncle Joseph II in 1790 and then of his father Leopold II at the age of only 44 on 1 March 1792, whereupon Francis II became emperor at the age of just 24. Eckhel was writing later in that same year, 1792.

Joseph II had sent Francis to the army in Hungary for training in 1784, when he was 16, and indeed Eckhel ascribes that training to the time of his youth, not his childhood as my translation wrongly says!

I think the formerly allied country with whom war had recently broken out was revolutionary France.

mauseus · « **Reply #20 on:** October 12, 2011, 05:21:54 pm »

Hi,

Me, I like coins too!

My PAX AVGVSTI jugate Sol coin on the 1759 plate of the same coin type from volume II of his Medallic History of Carausius.

The plates are very generic, sadly (although the BN's "Oriuna" is just visible in the picture and recognisable from the flan split), and don't match the quality of his contemporary Kennedy. You can still trace the coins from Kennedy's plates in modern collection publications, eg Hunter.

Regards,

Mauseus

Tacitus · « **Reply #21 on:** November 02, 2011, 10:17:39 pm »

Extremely jealous.... My source for antique books (Abe's Books) does not have a copy of Ezekiel Spanheim

How rare is this book?

Tacitus · « **Reply #22 on:** November 02, 2011, 10:18:41 pm »

On a different note, can you image having to carry around several of those AS Graves in a bag to buy something?

Andrew McCabe · « **Reply #23 on:** November 03, 2011, 05:48:59 am »

Quote from: Tacitus on November 02, 2011, 10:17:39 pm

Extremely jealous.... My source for antique books (Abe's Books) does not have a copy of Ezekiel Spanheim

How rare is this book?

As rare books go, it is merely rare. One sees a couple of copies in sales every year, with perhaps $500 to $1000 price tags, perhaps more for a superb copy. There are undoubtedly more in circulation through antiquarian bookshops. Anything actually available on Abebooks is for me common. Really rare books include anything which I want and which is not in my book collection. There are some books I've been searching out for a decade or more, and that appear perhaps once every 2 or 3 years and then command very high prices. Some such books fetch multiple thousands.

Postscript: There are a number of editions of Spanheim's work. Each later edition is longer than the prior ones - as he wrote more he added to the book.

In terms of utility, for Roman Republican coins the most useful antiquarian book is probably Fulvio Orsini / Fulvius Ursinus' (1529-1600) work on the family coins of the Roman Republic. It was the basis for the later books by Echkel, Babelon and Seaby's Roman Silver Coins. It was printed in many different editions in the 1500s and 1600s and is quite easy to obtain - a readable copy can be got for a few hundred dollars. It may be combined with a work by Antonio Augustin (1516-1586) on the Roman familes - my edition, published by one Charles Patin in Paris in the 1630s combines both books in one volume. The reason it is still important is that many of the assumptions written today in Seaby's Roman Silver Coins series as well as many other basic coin text-books, stem directly from views put forward by Orsini in the 1570s, which were then accepted by a long line of later scholars. Often there are equally valid alternates. So it helps greatly to see the original and oldest source that says for example "this coin relates to the rape of the Sabines", if only to check whether the story has changed over the centuries.

A relatively modern book, Henry Smyth's catalogue of the Duke of Northumberland's collection in 1856, is valuable for those interested in antiquarian books because (1) it summarises all prior views and scholarship back to the 1550s and (2) it is in English and very easy to obtain.

Tacitus · « **Reply #24 on:** November 05, 2011, 12:26:36 am »

I love your reply Andrew.... though I would argue that Dante's DIVINA COMMEDIA (Venice Vindelinus de Spira 1477 first edition) is not a common book, though it is one I definitely would buy for my collection. A steal at a mere $68,750

Abes Books has sold the other series I wanted... The Ybarra Edition of Don Quixote (1780 or so) .. I think it went for $250,000 for the 4 volume set

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Author Topic: I like coins (Read 5754 times)