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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  History and Archeology (Moderator: David Atherton)  |  Topic: Something... 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Something...  (Read 979 times)
benito
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« on: July 28, 2011, 03:43:36 am »

Decaying Maine.
And only imagine if they happened to have the archaeological heritage of the Italians.
No third world country by the way.
" 1. State-owned artifacts to remain in Maine.  No artifacts, objects, specimens or materials originating from a site on state-controlled land may be authorized to leave the State permanently without written permission of the permittors. They may be loaned for a term specified by the permittors for proper study or exhibit.
[ 1981, c. 55, §7 (NEW) .]
2. Sale of artifacts.  Attempts to sell, offers of sale and sale of artifacts, objects or specimens, excavated after the effective date of this Act, whether excavated lawfully or unlawfully from a site, without the written permission of the permit grantors or the Director of the Maine Historic Preservation Commission and the Director of the State Museum, are punishable by a civil penalty not greater than twice the price for which artifacts, objects of specimens are sold or offered for sale.
[ 1989, c. 700, Pt. A, §114 (AMD) .]
3. Prosecution.  The Attorney General, upon receiving notification and evidence of violation of this section from the Director of the Maine Historic Preservation Commission, is authorized to file a complaint against the person named in the District Court of the district in which the person resides, or in the district in which the violation occurred.
[ 1981, c. 55, §7 (NEW) .]
4. Artifact ownership.  Artifacts, objects, materials and specimens recovered from sites on state-controlled land are the property of the State Museum. Artifacts, objects, specimens or materials originating from a site on other than state-controlled land are the property of the landowner and shall be deposited with a suitable repository as designated by the landowner in the preservation agreement, or the permit.
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rick2
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2011, 03:48:54 am »

we are probably going off topic here.......

all I m saying is that these restrictive type of laws are a detriment to the conservation and study of the past.

nothing of course as bad as Turkey where all coins pre 1800 are banned from private ownership, with the unintended consequence that gold coins found are being melted for their content.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=0905124944049-2010-09-05

anyway lets concentrate on this find now........
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orbis non sufficit

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condition is not everything , rarity is also important!
benito
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2011, 03:58:36 am »

Curiously enough some of the countries usually mentioned  for their restrictive laws
are those whose rich heritage has been raped in the past.
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Teresa P
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2011, 08:08:37 am »

I know that. And I have nothing against private property.But IMO what is found in "public property" belongs to the public. Be it under or over the soil.
Why should one appropiate what is found in public land ? Take it to the authorities to be studied. You could be paid a reward ( a percentage of the value of what belongs to the public) and a plaque with your name stating " this hoard was found by Mr XXXXX, the Nation is gratefuil". I am sure that 90% OF METAL DETECTORISTS  would be very happy with their plaque. After all they are toiling for the heritage of their Nation.Money means nothing.
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monty
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2011, 09:01:26 am »

Hi, thank you all for your comments.

The coins were found on private farmland, where the club I am a member off has permission from the owner to search.

The coins are now in the custody of the National Museum in Cardiff .

As to the emperors etc, I left the coins totally untouched/un-cleaned so the experts could get as much information from them. Through the dirt though I could see coins of Gallienus,  Solonina, VictorinusTetricus, Claudius and  Postumus.  I will be fascinated to see what else comes out of the pot once the museum starts there micro excavation. I will let you know.

Under British law the hoard when declared treasure belongs jointly to me as finder and the land owner.  This is a rare find for the area of Wales in which I live, and I hope it will shed more light on the monetary history of the area.

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PeterD
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2011, 09:23:53 am »

I know that. And I have nothing against private property.But IMO what is found in "public property" belongs to the public. Be it under or over the soil.
Why should one appropiate what is found in public land ? Take it to the authorities to be studied. You could be paid a reward ( a percentage of the value of what belongs to the public) and a plaque with your name stating " this hoard was found by Mr XXXXX, the Nation is gratefuil". I am sure that 90% OF METAL DETECTORISTS  would be very happy with their plaque. After all they are toiling for the heritage of their Nation.Money means nothing.

In fact some finders do waive their rights under the law and receive a nice certificate signed by the Minister of Culture.

However normally the finds are valued by a committee consisting of experts from the trade, museums and metal detectorists. If a museum wants to acquire the items it must put up the money and pay the finder/landowner. Otherwise the items are returned to the finder.

Sounds fair to me.
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Peter, London

Historia: A collection of coins with their historical context http://www.forumancientcoins.com/historia
Teresa P
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2011, 09:36:21 am »

The British can regulate  freely on the ownership of objects found in public land. This applies to other countries as well. IMO what is found in public land belongs to the public.
Only a matter of respecting different opinions and/or laws.
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rick2
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2011, 11:11:45 am »

I know that. And I have nothing against private property.But IMO what is found in "public property" belongs to the public. Be it under or over the soil.
Why should one appropiate what is found in public land ? Take it to the authorities to be studied. You could be paid a reward ( a percentage of the value of what belongs to the public) and a plaque with your name stating " this hoard was found by Mr XXXXX, the Nation is gratefuil". I am sure that 90% OF METAL DETECTORISTS  would be very happy with their plaque. After all they are toiling for the heritage of their Nation.Money means nothing.


we are not talking about things that are found on private or public land.

we are talking about stupid and restrictive legislation that hinder rather than promote the study of our common history.

if Monty for example had found this hoard in Italy he would probably now be in prison. arrested for unauthorized dig and treated like a criminal , the coins would be seized without any compensation and sent to a useless state museum where they would be stored in some cellar never to be studied (lack of funds) for years.
On top of that it would be very likely that some corrupt official with access to the cellar would probably pick the best coins out , steal them and sell them on the black market (it has happened lots and lots of time).

needless to say that if you find anything roman in Italy you keep mum , throw it away , rebury it or worse.......

you can't even imagine the amount of roman ruins found in Italy during construction or renovation work and destroyed by the owner, because if he alerts the authorities the work gets stopped for years and he might find himself in trouble with the law

Thank god Monty found these coins in Wales where he will be treated as a local hero , the coins will be studied as a group and the knowledge will progress. (lets leave aside the monetary value of the finds which is secondary).


 
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orbis non sufficit

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condition is not everything , rarity is also important!
Dino
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2011, 12:19:37 pm »

Ah, so Benito and Teresa P are the same person...
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2011, 04:20:51 pm »

Ah, so Benito and Teresa P are the same person...

 Cool
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renegade3220
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2011, 08:15:09 pm »

Ah, so Benito and Teresa P are the same person...

I was wondering if anyone else picked up on that slip up.

Makes me wonder all over again...
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2011, 08:50:39 pm »

Ah, so Benito and Teresa P are the same person...

I was wondering if anyone else picked up on that slip up.

Makes me wonder all over again...

No doubt it is very useful for BoT competition voting!  Cool How many other aliases are there? I know of at least three.
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2011, 09:48:21 pm »

Ah, so Benito and Teresa P are the same person...

I was wondering if anyone else picked up on that slip up.

Makes me wonder all over again...


... and it makes for interesting, if not stimulating, discussions with oneself -  http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=73165.0

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Teresa P
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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2011, 10:19:21 am »

Anything wrong in pimping up my husband's coins.
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2011, 04:40:32 pm »

Anything wrong in pimping up my husband's coins.

Unusual behavior from one who according to b3nito has no interest in her husband's coins, threatens to consign him to the couch for numismatic purchases and is good for nothing but shopping in Europe.  Teresa, you really should read some of the things he has said. evil What caused the epiphany? A "road to Damascus" moment in the journey of life?  Cool
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renegade3220
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2011, 05:02:28 pm »

Anything wrong in pimping up my husband's coins.

Unusual behavior from one who according to b3nito has no interest in her husband's coins, threatens to consign him to the couch for numismatic purchases and is good for nothing but shopping in Europe.  Teresa, you really should read some of the things he has said. evil What caused the epiphany? A "road to Damascus" moment in the journey of life?  Cool

hah Loyd, you beat me to it. When I had some time later tonight I was going to pull some of benitos old posts about how his wife hates the whole thing! You pulled and paraprased some of the same quotes I was going to find.

I honestly grow bored of this game. I don't know what to believe onthe board many times now. It has caused me to just quite reading most of the stuff that gets posted... If you know what I mean.
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Teresa P
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« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2011, 01:23:25 am »

Anything wrong in pimping up my husband's coins.

Unusual behavior from one who according to b3nito has no interest in her husband's coins, threatens to consign him to the couch for numismatic purchases and is good for nothing but shopping in Europe.  Teresa, you really should read some of the things he has said. evil What caused the epiphany? A "road to Damascus" moment in the journey of life?  Cool

I know what benito has said. The silly  urban (coin collectors) legend of the couch,or waiting for the mailman,or other stupidities like coins for a Louis Vuitton or a cruise to Barbados. I studied archaelogy and despise looting (in particular in public land) or illicit traffic of antiquities,including coins. But I find nothing wrong in lending him a hand when one of his coins ,much better than that of a competitor,is being downgraded.
And I wouldn't  criticise him if he started calling names those who write without proof that the coins he posts do not belong to him. Presumption of innocence,I suppose.

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slokind
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« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2011, 03:02:43 am »

I don't keep up on all of Benito's jeux d'esprit, but concerning members who happen to be man and wife (in the old terminology), even I am a good enough feminist to protest that when She is a classical archaeologist and learned in her own right she is no different from me, whose formal credentials are the same.  I have a number of good friends in the Discussion Board, but, of course, when I give an opinion it is about the coins, and it is irrelevant that I am not wedded or partnered with any of them.
It is bad enough guys making jokes about hiding expenditures from wives, etc., though anyone who marries can handle that.  But the idea that a man and wife can't be members in their own right is like the old objection to giving women the vote, as if they would, or should, vote as one.
Pat L.
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Joe Sermarini
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« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2011, 07:03:21 am »

I split these posts from the other topic because they are too far off topic from the original posts discussion.

This thread began when someone said something unflattering in an undiplomatic way about Italy's laws.  Benito responded as I might if someone insulted the USA.  We can disagree with the laws of a nation and still be polite when we express our opinions.  

I do not believe Teresa P and Benito are the same person. 
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Joseph Sermarini
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2011, 01:40:51 am »

Interesting note on Spanish looting including coins which touches upon some aspects noted in the preceding discussion ....

Spain arrests 12 for looting archaeological sites
03/08/2011 21:17
Spain's Guardia Civil seized more than 9,000 antiquities and arrested in the Mediterranean region of Valencia 12 people who dedicated themselves to looting archaeological sites using metal detectors.

Early in the morning, the arrested people would go to archaeological sites in Valencia and Castile-La Mancha to look for buried artifacts that they would unearth and take to their homes to clean and later sell, authorities said in a statement.

"Operation Necropolis" led to the recovery of more than 9,000 pieces of great historical and scientific importance dating from several epochs and cultures, the Civil Guard said.

When authorities raided 13 homes in several towns in the Valencia region, investigators found - in addition to coins and medallions - metal detectors, maps of archaeological sites and items and products to clean the looted artifacts.

Spain's Historical Heritage Law expressly prohibits searching for archaeological items without authorization, and it demands that any pieces found by chance or by previous authorization must be immediately turned over to the authorities.

Copyright 2011 EFE News Services (U.S.) Inc., Source: The Financial Times Limited

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