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Author Topic: The Roman empire becomes Christian: startling conclusions in a forthcoming book  (Read 6371 times)

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Offline ancientdave

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Quote from: commodus on May 23, 2011, 01:03:40 pm
Christianity is by no means a re-invention of Paganism (and nobody has implied that it is)



I think the majority of people, especially religious individuals, do not understand this fact - they seem to think Christianity came along one day with a complete set of brand new ideals but this was just not the case. It was certainly more evolution than revolution.

Eric,

I didn't really object to anything you said. But I felt the above above remark was not just out of line, it's patently false. If you are going to make unsubstantiated remarks about what others hold to be sacred, expect to be challenged.

Now, it isn't my intention to start a war. I feel I have clarified my position and I am satisfied. I would be pleased to read further discussion about the original topic and I apologize to Curtis for giving this topic this unpleasant slant.

Will.



Granted we are in learned company in this forum but I have a large number of Christian friends who, almost to a man, have no idea about Late Antiquity or the events and climate in which their religion was first formed. I imagine it is the same for the majority of the 243,000,000 in the USA that practice Christianity and I find this very intriguing, that was all I meant in my comment. Believer or not, Religion must exist as a part of History and its adherents must allow it be debated as such, like we would any other topic.


I have had the same experience in the U.S. The parallels between Christianity and older pagan religions are undeniable if you are open to the concept, IMO. Since the dawn of man, new religions have borrowed from and built upon those that came before, and it's still happening today.

Offline SC

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    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
I was going to ask if anyone had read Charles Freeman's 2008 book "381 AD: Heretics, Pagans and the Christian State".

The thesis is summed up as: "In AD 381, Theodosius, emperor of the eastern Roman empire, issued a decree in which all his subjects were required to subscribe to a belief in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This edict brought to an end a lively and wide-ranging debate about the nature of God, and basically defined Christianity in the strict way that we all know it today. It was the first time in a thousand years of Greco-Roman civilization free thought was unambiguously suppressed."

When I searched to see if it had been discussed I found that another one of his books had on a older but very-much related thread now in Classical Numismatics: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=25083.0

Shawn
SC
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Offline mcbyrne21

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I have not read it but I may now because I am curious as to what M. Freeman would have to say about the Christological discussions of the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries and the vigorous disagreements between monophysites, monothelitists, Nestorians, etc.  Obviously for them the edict did not end the debate regarding the nature of God.

Offline Adrianus

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This is an interesting debate but I also think that we shouldn't get bogged down by discussions on what the Catholic church has borrowed from the polytheism of the Roman empire. Whether attributes from personifications e.g. St. Catherine's wheel or even wider questions such as the appearance of Jesus Christ being based on Bacchus/Apollo or other gods. There are plenty of books out there suggesting interesting hypotheses...

I too am fascinated by what Barnes might have to say. I must add, however, that I am distrustful of some of the sources. It is a plain truth that the winners write the histories and easy to suggest, because Julia Domna is alleged to have had discussions on the nature of religion with Christian ambassadors, that Severus was friendly to them. Gallienus is an odd case in any event and information is so scant on this period that again it is easy to suggest that he was also pro-Christian. Eusebius would have preserved that letter wouldn't he? Or got hold of a latter-day copy to prove Gallienus' friendship to Christianity.

This probably all sounds rather cynical but, as a historian, I've always liked to look at the sources themselves and consider their validity before questioning what their interpreters might say about those sources. I still regularly hear people arguing about the 3rd and early 4th century on the basis of the Scriptores Historiae Augustae, a late 4th century compilation of fictional nonsense (in the main). That is like writing a history of 21st century British history on the basis of excerpts from Private Eye or the Sun gossip column. Whether Tetricus was alleged to have eaten somebody's child or David Cameron was, the point remains the same...

There are various points where we do know what happened; Theodosius I's Edicts De Templis in 391 (where public worship of the old gods was forbidden) and in 392 (where private worship was outlawed) form clear (very late) dates by which we can judge what was actually happening. These are interestingly mirrored by first hand accounts of the destruction (by a bunch of fairly extremist Christians) of the temple of Serapis and so we can form an idea that (in the more Christianised cities of the Greek East - a generalisation which I hope you'll allow me) Theodosius' legislation was rather popular. I don't think it was popular in other areas - as perhaps Eugenius' revolt (backed by his Master of Soldiers Arbogastes) in the Western Provinces in 392 suggests.

Anyway, this isn't the place for an essay - I too am interested by what this book will say. It certainly doesn't flow (from the introductory thesis) with the stream I've bathed in...

Regards,

Adrianus

   

Offline ctgcoins

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The book Curtis refers to is now available from the publisher as well as from several abebooks sellers.

http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1405117273.html

Offline curtislclay

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Curtis,

I also did not know you went to U of T!  I did my BA and my History MA there.  Sadly I did not specialize in Roman history as I thought that East European studies offered more chance for gainful employment during the Cold War (even thought it was over well before I left U of T).

However, I did take one class with Dr. Barnes, an undergrad intro to Roman history.   I remember at the end of the 2nd or 3rd class I stood up (in the balcony no less) and asked him how we knew all the stuff he was telling us about (he had been quoting written works).  "I mean like there are no books surviving from that long ago right?"  After all, I was a 20th century history guy where you could go to the existing archives.  You could hear a pin drop as I sat down and I thought "Great, you just made a huge fool of yourself in front of 400 people!".  Instead Dr. Barnes said it was a great question and launched into a short but excellent description of existing stone and bronze inscriptions, papyri, and mostly re-written medieval manuscripts.  Even though he went on till 10 or 15 minutes after class was over, and we were all late for other classes,  I don't think more than a handful of the 400 people left the room early.

Shawn,

I'm glad to hear that Tim Barnes was an interesting lecturer too! I think I only ever attended seminars that he was leading.

Adrianus,

You need not worry that Tim Barnes' approach to the written sources will be uncritical! After all the Historia Augusta, when it was written and deriving from what sources, so how reliable, has been one of the major topics of his research.

CTG,

Thanks for the link. The price hurts a little, however!
Curtis Clay

Offline SC

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    • A Handbook of Late Roman Bronze Coin Types 324-395.
I looked at the other books in the same series (Blackwell Ancient Lives Series) and most appear to have had hardcover editions for over $100 and yet also have come out in a paperback version in the $25 to $45 range.

Maybe if we start hitting them with emails asking about a paperback version??

Shawn
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Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Gallienus is an odd case in any event and information is so scant on this period that again it is easy to suggest that he was also pro-Christian. Eusebius would have preserved that letter wouldn't he? Or got hold of a latter-day copy to prove Gallienus' friendship to Christianity.


This what Eusebius has to say:

SHORTLY after this Valerian was reduced 1 to slavery by the barbarians, and his son having become sole ruler, conducted the government more prudently. He immediately restrained the persecution against us by public proclamations, and directed the bishops to perform in freedom their customary duties, in a rescript which ran as follows: "The Emperor Caesar Publius Licinius Gallienus, Pius, Felix, Augustus, to Dionysius, Pinnas, Demetrius, and the other bishops. I have ordered the bounty of my gift to be declared through all the world, that they may depart from the places of religious worship. And for this purpose you may use this copy of my rescript, that no one may molest you. And this which you are now enabled lawfully to do, has already for a long time been conceded by me. Therefore Aurelius Cyrenius, who is the chief administrator of affairs, will observe this ordinance which I have given." I have given this in a translation from the Latin, that it may be more readily understood. Another decree of his is extant addressed to other bishops, permitting them to take possession again of the so-called cemeteries. (History, 7.13)

It's a pity there isn't more, but he seems clear enough.
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Offline Adrianus

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Hi Robert,

The same sort of bogus documents are cited in the Historia Augusta; it doesn't mean they are genuine. Likewise, the same sort of false charters are produced in Anglo-Saxon Engand to prove that (for example) Offa of Mercia gave land to a particular group. It ain't (or wasn't) necessarily so...   ;)

Regards,

Adrianus

Offline gallienus1

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Of course it is true that some of what I read in my Penguin or Loeb translations of ancient historical writing is by modern standards unreliable. The ancient writers had to rely on fewer written records, and I suspect a rather large body of what is disparagingly called “oral history”. That does not mean the essence of what they are telling us is not true.

Consider the documents Eusebius quotes, they may appear similar to those in the notorious Augustine History, but that does not mean they did not exist. Eusebius may have had copies of the actual documents, but he equally could be quoting what was common knowledge in his circle at the time. Thucydides quotes at length the speeches made in the Peloponnesian War. Did he have “documentary evidence” in the modern sense, or was he using “oral history”?

How many books have we read by modern historical writers that have a “new view” of something in the ancient historical past? Enjoyable read as they may be, many of these books will likely not pass the test of time. If Xenophon tells me something Socrates said or Eusebius tells me something Gallienus said, relying on sources other than written texts, I’m inclined to believe them.

If you add modern skepticism to what I see as modern intellectual arrogance you have Herodotus being insulted as “The Father of Lies”. Imagine how much the poorer our understanding of early Greek history would be without him.

Best Regards,
Steve

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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It's a good question; the documents Eusebius quotes are consistently taken as being reliable, but I haven't come across anything which really examines the question. I'll bring it up and see what answers I get.
Robert Brenchley

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