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Author Topic: Aelius denarius question (earlier post revived!)  (Read 1817 times)

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Offline timka

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Aelius denarius question (earlier post revived!)
« on: May 06, 2015, 02:01:19 pm »
Hi!

I would like to check with you a denarius of Aelius that I got recently. Most probably it was used as a pendant by Sarmatians - see the marks that were left above the head and on the reverse at 6h respectively. I guess this is a silver plated denarius, although those black/green deposits could be the remains of the corroded pendant that are left over the silver. I afraid to clean as I may further ruin the coin.  

By the way, the weight seems to indicate the bronze content too - it is 3,25 gr - is not it a bit too much for such worn out denarius? (Diameter - 18mm)

Ob: L AELIUS CAESAR
Rev: FELICITAS AVG

RIC did not feature this type, but refered to Cohen 17,18 (Au, D)  in the footnote, saying that this type is uncertain.  RSC reconfirms this is an uncertain type too. It seems that it was not encountered since Cohen, and it is unclear where Cohen saw it.

Your comments will be much appreciated, as I hesitate whether to keep it or return to the seller, as it was sold as silver denarius.

Thanks,

Z.

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Aelius denarius question
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 02:42:23 pm »
Does the flan crack at 9 o'clock on obv. edge allow you to tell whether the interior is silver or copper?

Style is that of the mint of Rome, suggesting a mule from official dies, unless it's a modern concoction!

Uneven surfaces might derive from plating over a copper core. The weight doesn't help, since it would fit well with either a solid silver or a plated coin.

Cohen quotes the type from Vaillant's book of c. 1680. I can check tonight whether Vaillant specifies a source.
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Offline timka

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Re: Aelius denarius question
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 03:54:55 pm »
Curtis, thank you for giving a hand with Cohen.  As for the crack at 9h, unfortunately it is too small for me to see anything inside even with the magnifying lens. There is a larger crack under Felicitas at 6h, which I was able to explore. It looks like silver inside, but this crack is large enough to be silvered along with the entire coin.

I attached two photos, before and after I scratched a bit inside this crack.

Also, I know that this coin was the MD find in a barbarian settlement, so it is not modern...

Thanks a lot for your time.

Z   

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Aelius denarius question
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2015, 01:22:01 am »
Vaillant, not saying what direction the portrait faced: "This type is rare in silver, extremely rare in gold, in the French royal collection."

It's unclear whether he meant that both the denarius and the aureus, or just the aureus was in the French collection.
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Offline Norbert

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Re: Aelius denarius question
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2015, 03:14:13 pm »
I know I am not very good at that - but if I look correctly this is a die match:
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=488&lot=167

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Aelius denarius question
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2015, 03:41:52 pm »
Yes apparently same dies, a fact which strongly supports the authenticity of Timka's specimen, since the Dorotheum coin has every appearance of being ancient, solid silver, and official!
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Offline timka

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Re: Aelius denarius question
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 04:35:44 pm »
Norbert,
Curtis,

Thank you for your time and help in solving this little puzzle. The dies match strengthened my  intention to keep this coin. Even though I am still not sure that my specimen is solid silver – it may be a silvered coin, given so evident hints of the copper (bronze?) that seems to be underneath the silver layer. May be it is an ancient counterfeit - when the worn coin was used for further replication.  I will keep you posted if I dare to go further down the copper oxides' deposits…

Thx!

Z.    

Offline timka

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Re: Aelius denarius question (earlier post revived)
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2016, 03:00:23 pm »
Hi!

Please have a look at quick shots of the right- facing Aelius with FELICITAS AVG on reverse that I have just received. It is not listed by RIC and it is omitted by all later references, including internet from what I was able to scan. As mentioned above in discussion of the left-facing Aelius with FELICITAS AVG, there is a footnote in RIC that questions the existence of Cohen 18, who seemed to note this right-facing type. RSC 18 doubts its existence similarly. So, I would like to confirm that Cohen was right - it's in front of your eyes - solid silver denarius of Aelius with FELICITAS AVG on reverse!

18mm - 2,9g - 180'

RIC (-), Cohen 18


Thank you for your time!

Cheers,

Z.


Offline curtislclay

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Re: Aelius denarius question (earlier post revived!)
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2016, 08:39:54 pm »
It is interesting that this mule occurs with two portrait types, head bare left as seen on the Dorotheum 2013 coin and on your coin in the thread's first entry, and now head bare right!

It's Vaillant not Cohen that these coins vindicate, however. Between 1674 and 2013, Vaillant was our only source for a denarius of this type, with unspecified portrait direction, whether left or right. Cohen was only citing Vaillant, and RIC and BMC were only repeating Cohen's citation of Vaillant.

One has to wonder whether Vaillant was also right that there used to be a FELICITAS AVG aureus of Aelius in the Paris collection. If so the coin ought to be described in the old manuscript catalogues of the royal collection in the Paris cabinet, including of course listings of the former ancient gold coins in the collection, which were all stolen and melted down in 1831.

The chief interest of these Aelius/FELICITAS AVG mules is that they suggest that Hadrian's FELICITAS AVG type, with Felicitas standing left holding short caduceus and cornucopia, must belong to the year 137, since that was the only year during which coins were also struck for Aelius Caesar. Maybe the same Felicitas type was struck twice, first c. 132-3 near the beginning of the HADRIANVS AVG COS III P P issue, and then again in 137, since the publishers of the Garrone hoard noticed two shared obverse dies between sestertii bearing the same FELICITAS AVG type and others bearing the type FORTVNA AVG, Fortuna standing left holding patera and cornucopia. That FORTVNA AVG type was used early in the issue, however, since it was copied by Hadrian's Eastern denarii, whose production seems to have ended fairly soon after the mint of Rome's HADRIANVS AVG COS III P P denarii began arriving in Asia Minor.
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Offline timka

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Re: Aelius denarius question (earlier post revived!)
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2016, 03:03:42 pm »
...my apologies to Vaillant...so all credits go to Vaillant, not to Cohen ;D

I have to admit that Felicitas was very common goddess on Aelius coinage - but it was featured along with TR POT COS II legend (RIC 430). So, the mint could plan to run Felicitas for Aelius, but used the Hadrian dies with Felicitas goddess and legend FELICITAS AVG by mistake. But it is strange that this mistake was made at least for two silver types:  with right- and left- facing obverses and different reverse dies (!) too, and for the gold aureus this mistake was repeated most probably too (according to Vaillant, as you noted). So, why is it the mule then? Could it be a planned contemporaneous issue running along with similar Hadrian issue FELICITAS AVG?   Yes, it is undated, which is strange for Aelius short-living uniform coinage. But undated issues are very common for denarii in general on the other hand.  

Curtis, thank you for your time!

Z.


Offline curtislclay

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Re: Aelius denarius question (earlier post revived!)
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2016, 03:09:55 am »
One has to wonder whether Vaillant was also right that there used to be a FELICITAS AVG aureus of Aelius in the Paris collection. If so the coin ought to be described in the old manuscript catalogues of the royal collection in the Paris cabinet, including of course listings of the former ancient gold coins in the collection, which were all stolen and melted down in 1831.

However, mules are almost unknown in gold, and Caylus' publication of the Roman gold coins in the French collection c. 1760, almost a century after Vaillant but 70 years before the great theft, does not include the FELICITAS AVG type for Aelius.

Paris did, however, possess an aureus of Aelius with the same Felicitas type but labeled TR POT COS II. I would suppose that this is the coin Vaillant meant. He had seen an Aelius/FELICITAS AVG denarius mule, and recognized that it was rare so wanted to include it in his book. But he also wanted to include the Paris aureus of the same type, so added it to the same entry, not bothering to mention that the aureus had a dated rather than descriptive rev. legend.
Curtis Clay

 

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