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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Biblical & Judean Coins (Moderators: Salem Alshdaifat, Aarmale)  |  Topic: Cornucopia styles 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Cornucopia styles  (Read 1872 times)
Aarmale
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« on: April 10, 2011, 02:31:24 pm »

Benito's "hair ID" posts (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=70899.msg445023) have inspired me to make a similar test, but with cornucopiae
What you have to do is tell me which ruler minted this coin!
This is probably easier then bust hair, because there are only 4 possibilities!

Nothing too hard right now, only 4 distinct examples.
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
benito
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2011, 12:11:32 am »

I,ll give it a try.  Hasmonean. Jonathan Hyrcanus I. (134-104 BCE).
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Aarmale
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2011, 01:35:03 pm »

I,ll give it a try.  Hasmonean. Jonathan Hyrcanus I. (134-104 BCE).

They are from different rulers.  The possibilities are: John Hyrcanus I, Judah Aristobulus I, Alexander Jannaeus and Mattathias Antigonus.
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
benito
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2011, 01:51:48 pm »

Don"t know much on jewish coins ,but its always good to learn. The one on the upper left is Jonathan Hyrcanus for sure.
How do you attribute the others.


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Aarmale
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2011, 02:03:12 pm »

You are right about that one being Hyrcanus. 
The other ones can be seen by style.  After some practice, one can tell the ruler (usually) from the cornucopia
 I'd say the hardest one is the one to the bottom right, because that style can be from two rulers.
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Robert_Brenchley
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2011, 03:32:25 pm »

Top right Antigonus (you can see the edge of the casting, which will be two-faced, unlike the others, which will be one faced). Bottom left Jannaeus. Bottom right could be either Hyrcanus I or Aristobulus, but we haven't got the latter, so I'll go for him.
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Aarmale
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2011, 06:02:26 pm »

Top right Antigonus (you can see the edge of the casting, which will be two-faced, unlike the others, which will be one faced). Bottom left Jannaeus. Bottom right could be either Hyrcanus I or Aristobulus, but we haven't got the latter, so I'll go for him.
There we are Robert, nice job!
The list was Hyrcanus, Antigonus, Jannaeus then Hyrcanus again.
Try this one, its a bit harder.
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2011, 11:07:34 pm »

Hi Benito,

Just for clarification: there was no such person "Jonathan Hyrcanus". The name you mentioned is mix between two kings: Yohanan Hyrcanus (134-104BC) and Yehonathan Yanneus (103-76BC). More than 90% of hasmonean coins were minted by these two kings. So,  saying "the coin is Jonathan Hyrcanus for sure" is right in 90% of cases - allmost all such coins were minted by Jonathan or by Hyrcanus Grin

Best Regards,
Explorer
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benito
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2011, 12:01:59 am »

Hi Benito,

Just for clarification: there was no such person "Jonathan Hyrcanus". The name you mentioned is mix between two kings: Yohanan Hyrcanus (134-104BC) and Yehonathan Yanneus (103-76BC). More than 90% of hasmonean coins were minted by these two kings. So,  saying "the coin is Jonathan Hyrcanus for sure" is right in 90% of cases - allmost all such coins were minted by Jonathan or by Hyrcanus Grin

Best Regards,
Explorer
My confussion is growing.I have seen Yohanan Hyrcanus (134-104BC) ,the one I mentioned specifically giving a date,also called John or Jonathan.
Is Yehonathan Yanneus (103-76BC) by any chance Alexander Jannaeus ?. I suppose he is,otherwise we would have 5 kings (sic) not four as mentioned by Aarmale.Then we have Judah Aristobulus I, and Mattathias AntigonusHuh Huh
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2011, 12:11:39 am »

You are right, Yehonathan, Yanneus and Alexander Jannaeus are 3 name for the same person - son of Yohanan (John) Hyrcanus.
There were 5 hasmonean kings, which minted coins (as we know):

Yohanan (John, Hyrcanus I)
Judah (Aristobolus I)
Yehonathan (Alexander Yanneus)
Yenathan??? (Hyrcanus II)
Mattathia Antigonus

Best Regards,
Explorer
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Aarmale
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2011, 07:42:27 am »

Judah (Aristobolus I)
Yehonathan (Alexander Yanneus)
Yenathan??? (Hyrcanus II)
Judah in Hebrew is "Yehudah".  Also, there has been some issues about if Yonatan (YNTN) is really Hyrcanus II.  Most, including Hendin, now believe that YNTN and YHONTN are names of Jannaeus.

Regards,

Aarmale
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
benito
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2011, 10:14:39 am »

Leaving aside jewish names I have drawn a family tree of the Hasmoneans rulers based on the book Histoire de la Palestine.
Six males and a female. Of the lot ,how many minted coins ,including the cornucopiae ones.
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Aarmale
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2011, 01:50:27 pm »

Hendin's current list is as such:
Yehochanan is Hyrcanus I
Yehudah is Aristobulus I
Yonatan and Yehonatan is Alexander Jannaeus
Matityah is Antigonus

These are the only Hasmoneans to mint coins.

We know the Hebrew names of the Hasmoneans from Josephus.  The only problem is, there were several by the same name. 
We are sure that Matityah is Antigonus, and that Yehonatan (not to be confused with Yonatan!) is Jannaeus, because they put Greek inscriptions on their coins (BAΣIΛEΩΣ AΛEΞANΔPOΥ and ΒΑCΙΛΕΩC ΑΝΤΙΓΟΝΟΥ respectively).

This leaves us with the Hebrew names Yonatan, Yehochanan and Yehudah.  Hendin used to think Yonatan (spelled YNTN in Hebrew consonants) was the king Hyrcanus II, but later changed his mind to Meshorers view that Yonatan and Yehonatan where the same person (Jannaeus).
Yehochanan was thought to be Hyrcanus II by Meshorer, but Hendin's hoard data suggests that it was Hyrcanus I.
Yehudah was thought to be Aristobulus II by Meshorer, but Hendin suggested that it was issued by Aristobulus I.

I probably have a few historical mistakes here, correct me if I am wrong.
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2012, 03:38:26 am »

Hi Aarmale,

I can't find where you have identified the second batch (of six) prutahs.

I would appreciate seeing them identified.

All the best,
Col
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Aarmale
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2012, 11:01:03 am »

Hi Aarmale,

I can't find where you have identified the second batch (of six) prutahs.

I would appreciate seeing them identified.

All the best,
Col

Here is the attribution, from left to right:

Row 1: Antigonus (http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=32869), Jannaeus (http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=212518), Jannaeus (http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=212844)
Row 2: Hyrcanus (Image attached, Hendin 1132, TJC A), Aristobulus (http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=471044), Aristobulus (http://judaea.chimehost.net/main/has_coins/aristobulus/hendin_466.html)
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2012, 09:20:03 pm »

Hi Aarmale,

Thank you very much for the update - all now copied and in my "how to" file.

All the best,
Col
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Biblical & Judean Coins (Moderators: Salem Alshdaifat, Aarmale)  |  Topic: Cornucopia styles « previous next »
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