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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numism  |  Reading For the Advanced Collector  |  Topic: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii  (Read 46811 times)
Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #50 on: December 25, 2012, 05:30:56 pm »

Looking again at the LEG IIX, much of it is quite natural, including the style of the eagle and the typical recessions ghosting the lettering; the aplustre-end of the galley looks odd, as do the standards, and the contrast between the obverse corrosion and the smooth fields on the reverse. Conclusion: fake, tooled from a corroded or worn ordinary legion.

Perhaps a moderator could hive-off the posts on this thread since yesterday and shift them to the authentication board?
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #51 on: December 25, 2012, 09:41:07 pm »

I think it should stay here in this thread.  It's a good resource. We could start another thread on authenticity and put a link in this one to keep them together.

EDIT:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=85137.0
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« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2013, 12:40:38 pm »

This is my LEG IIII, unfortunately not in a good grade.

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« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2013, 07:36:12 am »

I was about to get in a auction a LEG XII ANTIQVAE but escaped, I have only two common: LEG XIX and XIII
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2013, 04:37:51 pm »

THIRTEEN!

 Grin
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« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2013, 05:03:03 pm »

Andrew and Curtis thanks for the great info.  I want the IIX please/

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« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2013, 07:45:42 am »

THIRTEEN!

 Grin

Here we go Jay  Grin
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2013, 06:54:20 am »

Very nice!
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« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2013, 08:18:43 pm »

Hi all,

I've just getting started collecting Roman coins over the past year. After getting over the initial "cool to own any Roman coin at all" stage, I've started to develop some collecting themes to focus my purchases. One of the themes is the Antony legionaries. I recently got my first, LEG II, denarius.

I was showing it to my dad and he asked me why Antony struck coins for individual legions. I am by no means an expert but I have been reading as much as I can about the subject but I realized I had no solid idea why he did. Is it just as simple as he wanted to honor his legions and decided to do so specifically? Was it to keep track of how many coins were allotted to each legion? I haven't run across individual legions being mentioned on a coin in this way before (again, I'm not expert!), if he was the first, what was his reasoning?

Posting this in hopes that this isn't such an obvious question that I have to exile myself in shame!  Grin

Thanks for any help you can provide and for the information already posted.

Andrew
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« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2013, 08:39:15 pm »

Welcome Andrew!  Good question!

Knowing the timing of the mint of these coins helps.  They were struck just before the battle of Actium.  Many people were defecting from Antony to Octavian including Generals with their legions.  By naming the legions Antony was literally showing the legions who is paying them.  Despite the defections many of his legions were fiercely loyal to him.  In fact even after Antony's defeat Octavian didn't trust some of them (LEG X). 

Collecting all the Legionary types is a great challenge.  I'm actively trying to do the same thing.  Many have tried....few succeed!  See my gallery for some write ups of Antony's legions and the important parts of their long history with Caesar and Antony.  Welcome to the Antony Fan Club!
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« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2013, 10:32:37 pm »

Thanks for the informative reply Jay! I failed to mention I had also recently picked up a LEG XIII denarius. It's so interesting to stop and think of iconic moments such as the Battle of Actium and realize that people actually lived in that moment, it's not just legend. I may not end up with each legion's denarius but that won't stop me from trying!
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« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2013, 11:18:52 pm »

Thirteen!

Start a gallery and share them with us!
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« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2013, 06:40:02 pm »

Working on the gallery tonight!
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« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2013, 03:12:57 pm »

Well the notorious fake seller Saxby's recently sold a LEG PRI denarius.  I will post it here in hopes of fostering more discussion and to keep discussions in one place:

First the other known LEG PRI denarii.  The last one sold by Saxby's

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« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2013, 02:25:28 pm »

  For interest , the Lawrence sales catalogue of 1950 had his collection of Marcus Antonius Legionary Denarii listed in 3 lots 308/309/310 which sold for a total of £ 23 and 5 shillings .
  He had

 2 x Chort Praet
 2 x Chort Specul
 5 x LEG II
 3 x LEG III
 1 x LEG IIII
 1 x LEG IV
 3 x LEG V
 4 x LEG VI
 4 x LEG VII
 3 x LEG VIII
 2 x LEG VIIII
 1 x LEG IX
 4 x LEG X
 3 x LEG XI
 2 x LEG XII
 3 x LEG XII ANTIQUAE
 4 x LEG XIII
 1 x LEG XIIII
 1 x LEG XIV
 3 x LEG XV
 2 x LEG XVII
 1 x LEG XVIII
 2 x LEG XVIII LYBICAE
 2 x LEG XIX
 4 x LEG XX
 1 x LEG XXI
 1 x LEG XXIII
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2013, 10:36:40 pm »

  For interest , the Lawrence sales catalogue of 1950 had his collection of Marcus Antonius Legionary Denarii listed in 3 lots 308/309/310 which sold for a total of £ 23 and 5 shillings .
  He had

Very interesting even if hardly a random selection but rather an assembled collection. He's missing XVIIII as well as the elusive IIX and PRI. These types as well as IIII were absent from the Delos hoard. Lawrence had one IIII, as do I, so its probably not such a great rarity. The three he missed are also the same three missing from my collection. Modern fakes exist of PRI and IIX so I sometimes wonder are any examples genuine.
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« Reply #66 on: October 16, 2013, 05:44:06 am »

  For interest , the Lawrence sales catalogue of 1950 had his collection of Marcus Antonius Legionary Denarii listed in 3 lots 308/309/310 which sold for a total of £ 23 and 5 shillings .
  He had

Very interesting even if hardly a random selection but rather an assembled collection. He's missing XVIIII as well as the elusive IIX and PRI. These types as well as IIII were absent from the Delos hoard. Lawrence had one IIII, as do I, so its probably not such a great rarity. The three he missed are also the same three missing from my collection. Modern fakes exist of PRI and IIX so I sometimes wonder are any examples genuine.

 When you consider that Lawrence was collecting for over 50 years and was primarily a student collector so condition was not of prime importance then the missing pieces show that he had no opportunity to obtain them in that long period of time . He also had sources of supply not open to most collectors as is witnessed by the presence of a number of whole and part hoards listed for sale in his catalogue . Sadly compared to today the descriptions are in most cases all too brief . He also had strong connections to the British Museum and Royal Mint which for example enabled him to obtain one of the great modern British rarities a 1933 Penny which was then promptly hidden in a bulk lot by the cataloguer and bought for a trifling sum by Seaby's .
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« Reply #67 on: October 16, 2013, 10:09:05 am »

When you consider that Lawrence was collecting for over 50 years ... He also had strong connections to the British Museum and Royal Mint which for example enabled him to obtain one of the great modern British rarities a 1933 Penny which was then promptly hidden in a bulk lot by the cataloguer and bought for a trifling sum by Seaby's .

The best way to dispose of one's coins is in one's own lifetime, aided by one's own expertise, to make sure this never happens! Sadly, I think it's all too common. The disposal of the massive Boyd collection a few years ago was a prime example - marvellous coins were included in group lots with poor photos that no internet bidder could see properly. I also suspect that it's not always an accident when great rarities are hidden within auction lots or otherwise misdescribed.
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« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2013, 12:50:42 pm »

I also have a IIII but it's the only one I've ever seen come up for sale, so while it may not be rare it's definitely at least scarce

Looking through my missing legions I just realized I'm missing VIII...just so happens Joe listed one yesterday so I bought it. Smiley  There are a few I want to upgrade but the prices of these have skyrocketed in the last few years. 
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« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2014, 07:22:30 am »



I am always late on these threads as I don't collect the coins but am still interested in the latest discussion. I have not read the thread in great detail yet, but one can obtain, if it is already posted in this thread I do apologize for the redundancy, the Delos article with a pile of plates from NR here:

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_2003_num_6_159_2516

One has to go to the bottom of the issue and download the plates separately.

c.rhodes
PS Interesting thread, thanks!!
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« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2014, 12:41:28 pm »



I am always late on these threads as I don't collect the coins but am still interested in the latest discussion. I have not read the thread in great detail yet, but one can obtain, if it is already posted in this thread I do apologize for the redundancy, the Delos article with a pile of plates from NR here:

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_2003_num_6_159_2516

One has to go to the bottom of the issue and download the plates separately.

c.rhodes
PS Interesting thread, thanks!!

This is a very useful download! The plates are a separate download, if you can see the pdf index at left, click on Planches to get the plates, which are between pages 13 and 40. Thank you for sharing the link.
Andrew

Here is the link for the plates:
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_2003_num_6_159_2750
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Jay GT4
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« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2014, 08:55:35 pm »

Another LEG PRI hit the market:

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« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2014, 05:05:17 pm »

I was digging through a fantastic old auction catalogue that I purchased at NYINC and found an Antony LEG XXX.  No weights or dimensions, but here is the lot description.

Rodolfo Ratto - Lugano. January 23, 1924.  Monnaies de la Republique Romaine. 

1392 LEG. XXX. C. 65 fr. 400 (Antonia 145) De la plus grande rarité.  Beau.

Sold for 150 Fr Swiss.  For comparison sake, run of the mill Legionaries sold for 3-6 Francs in the auction.  What a wonderful auction.  If only my time machine was working...

It's not the same coin illustrated in Babelon.  Anyone have any addition info on the veracity of this issue or other pieces extant?

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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #73 on: February 08, 2014, 07:26:58 pm »

Wasn't there a group lot that included LEG XXX, LEG XXV and another, in last years JD sale or Student Mentor sale? I certainly remember bidding on them. Undoubtedly fake as likely is the one you illustrate, but the recent NAC examples allowed one to examine the alteration rather more closely than the black and white old photo of a plaster cast in the Ratto sale. Whereas for LEG PRI LEG IIX I believe there are many forgeries but a few genuine, for legions above XXIII I believe that are all altered and I don't know anyone who has asserted otherwise since Babelon. I think one would need to examine the Ratto specimen in hand if one was to assert that it is genuine, an otherwise non existent type that could have been easily altered cannot be authenticated from a photo, in fact a presumptive fake.

edit: here's the lot. Just XXX, XXV
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=656944

Auction catalogs: working from memory that's the Bonazzi sale, a very great sale. I have a copy of Bonazzi, and I think at NYINC this came in a lot of 3 catalogs of which I missed the other two Ratto sales, if that was the lot you were lucky to secure it.
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« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2014, 11:00:57 am »

Good catch on the NAC example.  Pretty silly prices being fetched for coins that are known to be altered IMO. 

I would assume that the coin in the Ratto auction was considered genuine at the time considering the price it fetched. 
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