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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numism  |  Reading For the Advanced Collector  |  Topic: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Marcus Antonius Legionary denarii  (Read 45583 times)
Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2012, 08:46:43 pm »

There is a new book coming out about the Legions by Stephen Dando-Coillins which tries to trace all of the Imperial Legions of Rome!  A huge undertaking!  I'd imagine he could trace some Imperial legions to those raised by Antony and Octavian.

http://www.amazon.ca/Legions-Rome-Definitive-History-Imperial/dp/1849162301/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I296XTDQDM9BVL&colid=2C8TWH4LZDIO9

I've read good opinions about the new Dando-Collins book. Here is a direct link to the book, with look-inside preview.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Legions-Rome-definitive-history-legion/dp/1849162301

The second part of the book - history of the various battles - only covers the Imperial period (neglecting the fact that almost all of Rome's expansion occurred in the Republican period), hence concentrating on the period in which Rome's legions more often failed rather than succeeded, which is odd for a book that, from its substance, seems intended to be a definitive history of the legion. Of course I'm bound to be disappointed that it does not cover the Republic, but given its subject matter I think it's a particularly irrational exclusion.
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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2012, 09:30:40 pm »

I've uploaded to Forvm, below the fold, an updated picture of all the Legionary types, missing only XVIIII. Click to enlarge.

All are from my own collection (!) except PRI, IIX and the golds. I guess I didn't realise that I collected Legionaries; it had not been my intention to try get them all, but whenever I saw a reasonable condition scarcer type (as with IIII today) I tended to pick it up.

Still, I have never considered myself as specialising in this area. If I was a real collector I would have bid for the IIX in NAC45, and I didn't. So clearly I didn't care enough. As I will update this picture from time to time as I get new coins (hopefully including XVIIII and IIX), here is also a link to it (the address should be permanent even though the image may change):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ahala_rome/7391454694/sizes/h/
thumbnail:

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Jay GT4
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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2012, 09:57:48 pm »

Thanks Andrew, I am actively trying to collect all of them! I'm still on the hunt for a few...

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1822
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« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2012, 10:01:15 pm »

Thanks Andrew, I am actively trying to collect all of them! I'm still on the hunt for a few...

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=1822

Terrific per-legion write-ups!

Clearly you are collecting them in a more deliberate manner than me!

If anyone should have an image of the elusive LEG XVIIII (19) could you please upload it and I'll also add it to the collage-picture.
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« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2012, 07:33:08 am »

Someone noted that I missed the recently auctioned LEG PRI example. See its picture below the fold.

NB perhaps it is altered / tooled. I cannot verify. It was sold by a seller whom I do not trust at all. There are dark areas all around the letters PRI. Maybe accidental. Maybe not. NNB. someone pointed out that the lettering style is consistent throughout, and thus is of the opinion that it is absolutely fine. Good point.
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« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2012, 11:52:59 am »

As far as I knew there are only 3 or 4  LEG PRI known.  Is this one of them or a new one all together?  Strange that they would all be so well struck and in good states of preservation.   Are they all die matched?  I only have a small picture of one from Sear's Imperator's book.
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« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2012, 06:49:18 pm »

As far as I knew there are only 3 or 4  LEG PRI known.  Is this one of them or a new one all together?  Strange that they would all be so well struck and in good states of preservation.   Are they all die matched?  I only have a small picture of one from Sear's Imperator's book.

They are not die-matched, and none of those known are beyond suspicion. In fact the styles differ greatly. When one considers these two examples (see below) of such different styles, and none having a match anywhere else, the possibility still remains that one was an invention, and the other was an attempt to provide another example of that invented type. The eagle, and details of the standard are entirely different between these two coins. Any series consisting of just 2 or 3 coins, where these coins differ greatly from each other, and where all the known examples are GVF-EF (no worn examples exist), has to remain under a cloud until some die-linked matches pop up.
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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2012, 07:25:51 pm »

On their own they look okay but when you put them side by side something isn't right.  As you say all known examples are in excellent condition and with only 3-4 examples you would think they would be die matched.  It just doesn't sit well with me.  What did it sell for?
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« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2012, 02:14:20 am »

On their own they look okay but when you put them side by side something isn't right.  As you say all known examples are in excellent condition and with only 3-4 examples you would think they would be die matched.  It just doesn't sit well with me.  What did it sell for?

It sold far too cheap, 7k, when one might have expected 20-50k for the sole example of such a rarity in the current market.

Phil Davis advised me of a third example: Hamburger 96, 1932, lot 514 = M&M XIX, 1959, lot 165, which he described as "not particularly persuasive" and coming from a third die pair. There is not a fourth example. There are just these three. My experience of really rare coins is that once they become recognisable from some verifiable nice examples, then poor condition examples begin to come out of the cupboards and into sale rooms, and this is a particularly easy type to recognise. Bear in mind that 90% of legionary denarii are in the typical Fair to Fine condition. So there should have been 10 or 20 of these in worn condition for every one in GVF. Legionaries are perhaps the one type of RR silver that are not discarded when in low condition, so the worn examples would not have been thrown or melted.

This is why the type remains uncertain. 3 examples, 3 die-pairs, none worn, and of completely different styles and design details too... It would be as if someone offered a 1916 D dime with the mintmark in a different place. That's what 'different dies, and different design details' implies.
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« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2012, 07:38:04 pm »

Just got a LEG IIII!!!!  To my surprise it went for under $60!!!!  I"ll post when it arrives in the next week.
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« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2012, 06:33:07 am »

Just got a LEG IIII!!!!  To my surprise it went for under $60!!!!  I"ll post when it arrives in the next week.

Congratulations! One of the really rare legions!
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« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2012, 03:51:41 pm »

Just got a LEG IIII!!!!  To my surprise it went for under $60!!!!  I"ll post when it arrives in the next week.

Wow !
Good job. I'm looking forward to seeing it !

JC
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« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2012, 08:07:05 pm »

How do you determine which are the most common to the most rare as I find this interesting as I never realized you had multiple
Legionary coins but does make sense?

thanks Adrian
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« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2012, 10:05:23 pm »

How do you determine which are the most common to the most rare as I find this interesting as I never realized you had multiple
Legionary coins but does make sense?

thanks Adrian

Take a look on page one of this thread.  It lists how many examples of each legion are found in hoard evidence. 
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« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2012, 07:01:33 am »

Thanks missed 1st page stupid me.Much appreciated
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« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2012, 10:40:30 am »

LEG IIII arrived today:
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« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2012, 11:31:15 am »

LEG IIII arrived today:


Nice clear number!
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« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2012, 11:56:23 am »

LEG IIII arrived today:


Ready to exchange ?
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« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2012, 08:30:42 pm »

Hi everyone,

Here is my first Marcus Antonius Legionary denarius, which I received it a few days ago.
It should be the XI legion. I do make an X and a possible I, when I look at the coin under light.
I'm happy to have added one to my collection.
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« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2012, 10:44:50 pm »

Specimen counts from large hoards are usually very good indices of relative rarity.

For Antony's legionary denarii, the following quantities were contained in the Delos Hoard of 1905, according to Revue Num. 2003:

CHOR PRAET 6
XII ANTIQVAE 5
XVII CLASSICAE 8
XVIII LYBICAE 4
CHOR SPECVL 9
PRI None
II 40
III 25
IIII None
IV 28
V 37
VI 36
VII 27
VIII 27
IIX not in Crawford, none in hoard. Andrew, how do we know of this piece?
VIIII 15
IX 20
X 28
XI 24
XII 28
XIII 20
XIIII 6
XIV 12
XV 39
XVI 24
XVII 22
XVIII 6
XVIIII None
XIX 16
XX 13
XXI 23
XXII 15
XXIII 24

So the real rarities are PRI, IIII (Andrew, why not in your list?), IIX, and XVIIII.

Scarce are the two Cohort pieces and all with epithets, plus XIIII and XVIII. Andrew says some of these are common, but that impression is probably merely created by the fact that they are particularly sought after and sell for a premium, so preferentially make their way into collections and are offered by dealers.

Commonest are apparently II, V, VI, and XV. VI was the one Marcus and Verus chose to restore during their joint reign, doubtless in connection with a withdrawal and recoining operation. Probably that was the reason, its commonness, rather than any particular merit or imperial preference for that legion.

Just came across this, but not sure.  Notice the ring around "LEG" maybe from a recut die?
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« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2012, 02:11:39 am »


Just came across this, but not sure.  Notice the ring around "LEG" maybe from a recut die?

It looks ok to me, that's the normal effect around lettering around legionary denarii.

But where do you "just came across a LEG IIX denarius" Huh I want that coin.

Happy Christmas day to all. It's raining. But a meat-fest is in the planning so I guess we'll survive.

Christmas Cracker riddle: What are potoooooooo?
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« Reply #46 on: December 25, 2012, 07:34:11 am »

I've never seen that effect on Legionaries before.
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« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2012, 10:47:56 am »

I've never seen that effect on Legionaries before.

I think this is maybe a similar effect on one of my coins on RPC.  I've seen this on coins before and I'm not sure what causes it, perhaps a bit of die shift upon striking or recut die like you said.  To me, the style on that LEG IIX doesn't look right.  I've found another example in CoinArchives.  



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Jay GT4
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« Reply #48 on: December 25, 2012, 01:19:23 pm »

Thanks carthago.  Interesting that again for a rare Legionary there is no die match...
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« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2012, 05:18:42 pm »


Just came across this, but not sure.  Notice the ring around "LEG" maybe from a recut die?

It looks ok to me, that's the normal effect around lettering around legionary denarii. [true, but I now think the whole coin is fabricated]

But where do you "just came across a LEG IIX denarius" Huh I want that coin. [I do not want that thing.]

Happy Christmas day to all. It's raining. But a meat-fest is in the planning so I guess we'll survive.

Christmas Cracker riddle: What are potoooooooo?

potatoes (pot + 8 o's).

I withdraw my support for the IIX.  I think it has been tooled from a much more worn legionary. I now know who sells it, a firm which is known not to be reliable as regards improved and altered coins and I show below another coin (Caesar elephant) currently on sale by that seller. It looks like tooled silver, unnatural/ scraped/ altered, weird style.  Just try finding a style match.

Thanks carthago.  Interesting that again for a rare Legionary there is no die match...

There's also no die match for the two LEG PRI shown earlier in the thread. I'm not bothered by no die match as such, but I am bothered that the style and fabric of the two LEG PRI's differs so much. If there were only a few dies one would at least expect 1 engraver. Some or all LEG PRI's may be fakes,. Some LEG IIX's may be fakes but others are certainly genuine.
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