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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  History and Archeology (Moderator: David Atherton)  |  Topic: Oldest Christian Texts discovered in Jordanian Cave? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Oldest Christian Texts discovered in Jordanian Cave?  (Read 4016 times)
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« on: March 29, 2011, 08:23:39 am »

Very intriguing, if the word of the Jordanian authorities is to be believed. Discovered between 2005-7.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12888421

These "metal books" certainly are curious items, the like of which I've never heard of before.
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2011, 06:37:27 pm »

Interesting. I e mailed a friend of mine who is a Biblical scholar who has written about the Dead Sea Scrolls and similar. I'll let forvm in on his thoughts.
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2011, 02:48:46 am »

According to my newspaper "Israeli archaeological sources have been dismissive of the find, suggesting that Mr Saeda [the guy who holds the artefacts] has appeared 'every few years' trying to sell the codices. They said examinations had shown them to be forgeries."
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2011, 03:45:46 am »

According to my newspaper "Israeli archaeological sources have been dismissive of the find, suggesting that Mr Saeda [the guy who holds the artefacts] has appeared 'every few years' trying to sell the codices. They said examinations had shown them to be forgeries."
I hope this doesn't yank Benito's chain, but you don't suppose Mr Saeda is related to Mr Sadigh do you?  Grin
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Tacitus
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2011, 03:35:11 pm »

According to Yahoo, they have been carbon dated to first century AD.
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2011, 05:03:14 pm »

Quote from: Tacitus on March 30, 2011, 03:35:11 pm
According to Yahoo, they have been carbon dated to first century AD.
I'm not saying that these lead books are fake or not, but carbon dating means only that the material came from that date.  I'm sure that if you carbon dated the coins in the "Badly tooled coins..." thread, most of them would carbon date to the right period if you ignore the patina, of which the top layers could be modern anyway.  (In a lot of cases of coins found in Britain, modern farm chemicals would have adjusted the patination process anyway)
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2011, 05:12:39 pm »

Despite widespread popular belief to the contrary, radiocarbon dating is an inexact science with plenty of room for error.
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2011, 07:31:32 pm »

I’m deeply fascinated by these codices, but after the debacle of the the “James Ossuary” I can’t help being cautious.

More information at-
http://rogueclassicism.com/2011/03/30/lead-codices-silliness/

Best Regards,
Steve
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Joe S2
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2011, 07:52:41 am »

Another related article,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1372741/Hidden-cave-First-portrait-Jesus-1-70-ancient-books.html
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2011, 08:35:08 am »

Looking at the photo's of these 'codices', there is no doubt in my mind that these object are fake. Note that classicistic three-quarter facing head, which is totally out of time and place with the rest of the 'judeo-christian' imagery. There is also a mixture of Greek and what is supposed to be paleo-Hebrew. Looks like someone just mixed different 'ancient' images and writing at random.
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2011, 02:27:22 pm »

Looking at the photo's of these 'codices', there is no doubt in my mind that these object are fake. Note that classicistic three-quarter facing head, which is totally out of time and place with the rest of the 'judeo-christian' imagery. There is also a mixture of Greek and what is supposed to be paleo-Hebrew. Looks like someone just mixed different 'ancient' images and writing at random.
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Gert
I agree, the Proto Hebrew style is completly off from what it should have looked like.


Note the similarity of the bust with the bust of Helios.

Here is an analysis of the script:


Also, scripts from that time should be in Aramaic, in Aramaic box script.
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2011, 03:57:27 pm »

I see you read the same blogs as I do!

http://tomverenna.wordpress.com/2011/04/03/new-roundup-on-lead-codices-and-additional-information/
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2011, 06:33:27 pm »

My friend, whose main scholarship interest is the period of the first century AD, was also very unimpressed. He is a secular scholar, so we have some interesting conversations about these things.  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2011, 11:19:57 am »

Quote from: Tacitus on March 30, 2011, 03:35:11 pm
According to Yahoo, they have been carbon dated to first century AD.

Since carbon dating can only be done on organic materials, and these books are composed of is inorganic metal, this can't possibly be correct.  You sure they weren't referring to some other dating method?
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2011, 01:43:54 pm »

Quote from: Tacitus on March 30, 2011, 03:35:11 pm
According to Yahoo, they have been carbon dated to first century AD.

Since carbon dating can only be done on organic materials, and these books are composed of is inorganic metal, this can't possibly be correct.  You sure they weren't referring to some other dating method?
I think I recall reading that the dating was on a piece of leather found with the plates.
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2011, 03:10:52 pm »

It would be perfectly possible to plant a genuine piece of ancient leather among a collection of fakes, so it doesn't necessarily mean much.
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« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2011, 04:34:37 pm »

Not to be taken as any more of a comment on modern religion that the thread already touches, but why does all this sound rather familiar?

Ah yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_plates


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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2011, 07:47:07 am »

Quote from: Tacitus on March 30, 2011, 03:35:11 pm
According to Yahoo, they have been carbon dated to first century AD.

Since carbon dating can only be done on organic materials, and these books are composed of is inorganic metal, this can't possibly be correct.  You sure they weren't referring to some other dating method?
I think I recall reading that the dating was on a piece of leather found with the plates.

Alright, that makes a bit more sense, but as Robert Benchley said, that doesn't really help us much.
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2011, 05:20:30 pm »

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article7173961.ece
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Robert Brenchley

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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2011, 05:38:22 pm »

Kabbalah is from the 11th century CE, so this must be fake.
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« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2011, 11:31:39 pm »

A couple weeks ago I listened to a radio interview with a Mr. David Elkington who examined the lead books and to be honest I came away from it believing they are probably forgeries.
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2011, 09:48:10 am »

I don't have any opinion on the authenticity of the books, and will accept the conclusions of people who know a lot more than me.  I don't believe, however, that similarities between images in the book and those on coins is an indicator of forgery.  I would not be surprised at all by an early depiction of Jesus that resembled Helios.   
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2011, 02:28:04 pm »

Neither would I, if it was from around the 4th or 5th Century. Constantine I was a sun worshipper, who continued to mint huge numbers of coins declaring his relationship to Sol Invictus long after his supposed 'conversion'. He issued two rescripts regarding, not Sunday observance, but abstaining from work on 'the venerable day of the Sun'. In the following century, Leo the Great complained about people doing their devotions to the sun on the Vatican steps, on their way in to Mass. It's no coincidence that we've ended up celebrating Jesus' birth on Dies Natalis Invictus! Such a connection from the 1st Century, however, would surprise me a great deal.
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« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2011, 04:20:11 am »

There's a new twist in this story: http://www.jordantimes.com/index.php?news=38498

I don't know what these 'tests' were that 'supports their authenticity', but it is already conclusively proven that these tablets are fake. Maybe they carbon dated the leather straps, which might be ancient, but this of course says nothing about the engravings.
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« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2011, 11:18:03 am »

Quote from: Tacitus on March 30, 2011, 03:35:11 pm
According to Yahoo, they have been carbon dated to first century AD.
In the first century CE, imperial Aramaic was used commonly, along with Greek - rarely Hebrew.  Hebrew Script (Ketav Ivri) was only used for specific purposes, and were used in royal documents and coins. Most Second Temple era writings are found written in Aramaic script (Ketav Ashuri), notably the Dead Sea Scrolls (with the exception of the Tetragrammation in some writings), as well as the Bar-Kochba letters and the "To the Trumpeting Place" stone.
Also, as was mentioned, the script style is completely wrong.
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  History and Archeology (Moderator: David Atherton)  |  Topic: Oldest Christian Texts discovered in Jordanian Cave? « previous next »
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