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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Authentication, Fakes and Frauds (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Numitoria denarius Fake 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Numitoria denarius Fake  (Read 2785 times)
Espanol_mosquito
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« on: March 13, 2011, 04:51:46 pm »

Fake
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areich
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2011, 02:59:10 am »

Care to elaborate?
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art
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 03:33:06 am »

Crawford 246/1. Please enlighten on the fake thing.
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cicerokid
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 06:37:16 am »


Quite sometimes I think the Spartans wouldn't be as Laconic Smiley


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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2011, 07:58:35 am »

Crawford 246/1. Please enlighten on the fake thing.

I'm asking the same question, as from a photo it doesn't look so bad. It probably isn't a Slavey or a recent Bulgarian or suchlike fake.

But bear in mnid this is a $10,000 - $25,000 coin as shown. Thus if it appears on eBay there is a reasonable presumption of guilt (just as there would be were an EID MAR in this condition to appear no eBay). The background doesn't look as if it is from a major auction house ...

Some less-laconic context would help. General nature of seller etc. without mentioning names.

The BM example (BMCRR plate coin) is shown below. Different dies but clearly similarities in style, and if you were to blank-out the Numitoria name one would consider this as genuine. The above coin doesn't have the big honker of a nose of the BM specimen. I can't recall offhand if the dies have been counted or just the usual Crawford wild estimate. If counted, then it's easily verifiable if the pictured coin comes from kown dies (there won't be many dies on this issue, amongst the very rarest in the RR).
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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2011, 08:08:56 am »

The BM example (BMCRR plate coin) is shown below. Different dies but clearly similarities in style, and if you were to blank-out the Numitoria name one would consider this as genuine. The above coin doesn't have the big honker of a nose of the BM specimen. I can't recall offhand if the dies have been counted or just the usual Crawford wild estimate. If counted, then it's easily verifiable if the pictured coin comes from kown dies (there won't be many dies on this issue, amongst the very rarest in the RR).

On closer inspection I am seeing one feature that I've seen in another well-made fake. This is the half-wheel which intersects the border dots. I've seen a well-made Cipia denarius with such a feature never seen in any genuine RR coin I'm aware of. I handled the Cipia, which was die-struck, and it was remarkably well-made and apart from the half-wheel feature I would not have suspected it. The Numitoria illustrtaed by misterP has a similar partial-wheel with the back of the wheel cut off by border dots. Usually if short of space Roman die-engravers chose to foreshorten the wheel rather than have it intersect the border.

More context on where the pic comes from would help.

[Postscript: There is no die-count in Crawford. It has the usual "[<10]" indicator which means nothing more than that the type rarely occurred in hoards. It doesn't say anything more. There might be one die. There might be 547 dies. All we know from "[<10]" is that it isn't seen a lot in hoards.]

[Post-postcript: re-reading this post I want to make clear I am saying nothing negative about the coin pictured. It's an extremely rare type, it is not a typical ebay piece, I don't know a die-match, the photo context is odd, and it has an unusual cut-off wheel. But that's just fluff and circumstantial. I've no specifically negative comments about the coin itself]
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Espanol_mosquito
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2011, 05:34:53 pm »



Goog morning

The horses seem fake dogs. In addition, recent
two horses
not be beaten. There is no Republican denarius (
also consumed) where the horses are not all
well evident.
The fake Nike is Greek. There is no way nike
made in the Republican denarius.

And then, just do a comparison with those of authentic





http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=383564
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commodus
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2011, 05:56:47 pm »

On-line translation strikes again!
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2011, 09:10:38 pm »


Goog morning

The horses seem fake dogs. In addition, recent
two horses
not be beaten. There is no Republican denarius (
also consumed) where the horses are not all
well evident.
The fake Nike is Greek. There is no way nike
made in the Republican denarius.

And then, just do a comparison with those of authentic

http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=383564

Good point about the horses heads. There are also differences in the chariot with both the pictured genuine examples having a different shape (too early in morning to describe, so look at the photos). And there's the half wheel... And the lettering is quite a bit smaller on the coin misterP shows - that on the other two examples is more bunched up together and elongated and thicker. Still this is very well made and die-struck. Wish I had a few other examples to compare it to.
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Espanol_mosquito
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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2011, 06:03:44 am »

Quote from: commodus on March 14, 2011, 05:56:47 pm
On-line translation strikes again!



ok. Which language do you want me to write to you?
  I see you I want to write about the forum  Portuguese or
Turks!
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commodus
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2011, 10:28:57 am »

Quote from: commodus on March 14, 2011, 05:56:47 pm
On-line translation strikes again!



ok. Which language do you want me to write to you?
  I see you I want to write about the forum  Portuguese or
Turks!

That was not meant as a criticism of your English, but as a criticism of the quality of on-line translation programs. If I translate English into Portugese or Turkish using one you'll see what I mean!
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2011, 12:20:23 pm »

On a related subject, just today I was looking at this coin also for sale as a Numitoria denarius. Whilst it is obviously not a fake, the seller admits that they "cannot prove for certain that this coin is of C. Numitorius", although it is certainly priced as if it is!

Regards,
Ignasi
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commodus
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2011, 01:16:54 pm »

The mark of value is different on the coin Silvernut posted. It appears to be a worn example of a denarius of Marcus Fannius, rather than Numitorius. Several elements of the details suggest this, as do the laws of probability.
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2011, 01:53:40 pm »

On a related subject, just today I was looking at this coin also for sale as a Numitoria denarius. Whilst it is obviously not a fake, the seller admits that they "cannot prove for certain that this coin is of C. Numitorius", although it is certainly priced as if it is!

Regards,
Ignasi


Indeed as commodus notes, this is a common coin of Fannius.

I'm curious as to the level of price that was hoped for.
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silvernut
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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2011, 05:21:40 pm »

$1,400. But they accept offers...

Regards,
Ignasi
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commodus
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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2011, 07:58:58 pm »

Wow!  Shocked
I think $40 or thereabouts would be more in line.
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2011, 04:42:22 pm »

I forgot: the weight is of  gr. 3,6
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« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2011, 05:56:50 pm »

I do not know anything about this type, but the thing that strikes me about the coin in question is the remarkably beautiful style compared to the known authentic examples.  It's like comparing a barbaric imitation ATG Tet to an official mint example, worlds apart. 

Not sure what this says about the coins authenticity but being such a rare type, it is hard to accept the fact that one with such a remarkable style would be floating around and photographed on someone's math book.

Here they are side by side for easy comparison:
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2011, 02:40:10 am »

I do not know anything about this type, but the thing that strikes me about the coin in question is the remarkably beautiful style compared to the known authentic examples.  It's like comparing a barbaric imitation ATG Tet to an official mint example, worlds apart. 

Not sure what this says about the coins authenticity but being such a rare type, it is hard to accept the fact that one with such a remarkable style would be floating around and photographed on someone's math book.

Here they are side by side for easy comparison:

I agree it is very different and with all that you conclude.

It is die struck and made from good quality engraved dies in an ancient style, and on a flan that is as one would expect from an ancient Republican denarius. But the style and some of the details are absolutely not consistent with other pieces of this type. Make of it what you will; if this was at auction I would not bid on it even though I'm missing the type from my collection.
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2011, 05:57:11 am »

Here's one which a friend, a reputable coin dealer, (areich: not you-know-who  Grin) has been offered. I would say this is genuine and the obverse is probably a die match for the one in the b/w image in this thread (Is that from Crawford or BMC?).
I was looking at the details of Roma's helmet (with 3 vertical dots and small ^^ at the top, positioning of the letters in relation to the dotted border etc.
All the tiny details are spot on.

The only differences which spring out at me are all on the reverse which could be the result of it being from a different die:
- the wheel is slightly smaller
- Victories wing tip is further to the left
- the ties of the wreath she is holding are slightly more rounded
- the horses' legs are straighter
- the ends of the reins she is holding are shorter and in a different position.

Having said that, the NAC coin is different again, with, for example, no dangling rein ends, the name NVMITORI is a bit wonky with differering spacing and a drunken M, Victory is thinner, her wing sticks out further from her shoulder....

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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2011, 06:50:00 am »

Here's one which a friend, a reputable coin dealer, (areich: not you-know-who  Grin) has been offered. I would say this is genuine and the obverse is probably a die match for the one in the b/w image in this thread (Is that from Crawford or BMC?).
I was looking at the details of Roma's helmet (with 3 vertical dots and small ^^ at the top, positioning of the letters in relation to the dotted border etc.
All the tiny details are spot on.

The only differences which spring out at me are all on the reverse which could be the result of it being from a different die:
- the wheel is slightly smaller
- Victories wing tip is further to the left
- the ties of the wreath she is holding are slightly more rounded
- the horses' legs are straighter
- the ends of the reins she is holding are shorter and in a different position.

Having said that, the NAC coin is different again, with, for example, no dangling rein ends, the name NVMITORI is a bit wonky with differering spacing and a drunken M, Victory is thinner, her wing sticks out further from her shoulder....



Unlike the coin which started this thread (and which I now think is fake), this is unquestionably of the right style including the honker of a nose. As for any such coin, close examination in hand and with loupe/scope by an expert is necessary to authenticate such a commonly-faked rare type. So, knowing the dealer and his reputation for RR silver is important.
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« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2011, 12:05:13 am »

Hi,

Look at the anatomy of the horses on the reverse of the coin that started this thread, especially their lower rear legs. The limb section immediately above the hoof appears hugely elongated compared to real horses (and the other depicted coins of this type). Double- kneed legs? Surely an ancient engraver will have had a fairly regular view of horses and would never have depicted them like that? I think this could only have been done by a modern copyist & city dweller.
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