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Author Topic: The use of perspective on ancient coins  (Read 2262 times)

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Offline rover1.3

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The use of perspective on ancient coins
« on: November 02, 2010, 09:09:20 pm »
Some engravers had a better understanding and used the perspective in a clever way on their work.
Here on a Larissa drachm, a wonderful 3d effect is achieved by the creation of a foal deep inside the depth of field, while a mare is standing on the foreground.
Foal's details are not engraved with extra sensitivity, probably because the engraver was clever enough and wanted to emulate the "out of focus" look of the background
when we have our focus on the foreground.

I found this to be simply amazing. Long before Renaissance,yes?

Other examples you may have in mind?

Offline mihali84

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2010, 09:34:37 pm »
Very interesting example rover1.3, the perspective is very interesting and unlike any i have seen before.

Known for their interesting use of perspective, here is my Sardes mint Drachm with Zeus portrayed in an interesting frontal perspective.  I've also included an image of a Salamis mint ATG tetradrachm (not mine, but wish it was) that seems to have also captured the frontal perspective of Zeus very well, something rarely if ever seen on a Tetradrachm.
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Offline slokind

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2010, 11:09:16 pm »
That Larisa coin her best one ever, in my opinion.  Difficult as it is on dies (which also take a beating being used for striking), the creation of such effects, recording (interpreting) actual optical experience, something that the Greeks excelled in, is well attested, generally attested, by the 4th century BC.  Yes, on a coin it is breathtakiing.
Pat L.

Offline rover1.3

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2010, 07:10:49 am »
Another example given by Mihali. You can feel the depth between Zeus elbow and body. Thank you my friend, you catch it well. ;)

Isn't it wonderful? I guess such effects are seldom seen on ancient coinage.
I would love to see and read about similars on other forms of ancient Greek art, especially on painting, in case someone can give a link or something.
Thank you all.

Offline Randygeki(h2)

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2010, 03:51:12 pm »
Yes this is very interesting and cool. It may just be me, but their right legs and bare arms seem to do this as well on  mine, just a bit more subtle.

Offline rover1.3

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2010, 12:48:31 pm »
Even today, in photographic art and cinema, the most expressive portrait photography can be achieved by the use of the interesting 3/4 angle.
Ancient Greeks knew about that, and started using this in coinage in fourth century B.C.
The high relief these coins usually have, in conjuction with the perspective, gives them an unbelievable 3dimensional feel in hand. They force a strong psychological influence.
Here is an example of a beautiful tetradrachm of Maussollos of Caria i found on Acsearch.

Offline *Alex

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2010, 03:17:50 pm »
The Romans could do perspective too when they put their minds to it.

Alex.


Offline Enodia

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2010, 04:20:08 pm »
an interesting discussion which i am enjoying immensely, and the coins shown are outstanding, especially that Carian tetradrachm!

the coin which jumped into my mind when i first read this was a small bronze of Carthage from my collection. i'm sure you all know the type; Tanit left on the obverse and a horse standing right on the reverse, but with a palm tree behind (my own example is too low grade to show here). this is not a rare coin or a particularly unusual depiction (there are coins from Ephesus, for example, with the same device). but while the artistic style of the Carthaginian piece is not up to that of the other coins shown here, it does explore the same use of perspective, the horse being nearly the same size as the tree but the overall effect giving a wonderful depth of field.

a much more dramatic effect (imo) was achieved on a coin of Velia, circa early 4th century BC. it is not only the use of perspective but the way that perspective drove the composition which fascinates me.
below are two examples from CNG, the first of the more typical reverse scene, with the lion attacking a stag. this is the far more common type.

the second shows the same event, more or less, but with the lion in the foreground and almost completely (but not quite) blocking the stag from view. it is this teasing glimpse of the stag which provides the depth here, in a way which takes the imagery from a two-dimensional representation and opens it up into a fully blown scene from nature! the coin becomes a window rather than a canvas, and we are left to wonder at the inspiration of the engraver.
very impressive!

~ Peter



Offline slokind

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2010, 06:47:51 pm »
If you wish to maintain clarity in discussing such questions, you need to observe the distinction between 'foreshortening' (how objects look to us in space, provided we have binocular vision) and 'perspective' (how SPACE looks to us when we are looking through it.  It is analogous to the distinction between 'mass' (solid bulk, as in the Pyramids) and 'volume' (as in the interior of the Pantheon).  The distinction between 'vantage point' (from which something is seen, or understood to be seen) and 'vanishing point' (the simplest being where those railroad tracks, in one-point perspective, appear to meet in the perception of distance).  Not all perspective is linear (vanishing points pertain especially to rendering things like architectural frameworks) and atmospheric perspective pertains to the reduction of clarity and color saturation and hue (the early Renaissance rule of thumb: brown earth in foreground, green in middle distance, blues as you near the horizon, can be seen in many Flemish paintings, for instance).

Of course, I have no trouble seeing what you-all mean when you say 'perspective' for all optical effects, or as many of them as occur on coins.  Any good editor, however, would blue-pencil a lot.

Pat L.

Offline rover1.3

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2010, 07:18:04 pm »
If you wish to maintain clarity in discussing such questions, you need to observe the distinction between 'foreshortening' (how objects look to us in space, provided we have binocular vision) and 'perspective' (how SPACE looks to us when we are looking through it.  It is analogous to the distinction between 'mass' (solid bulk, as in the Pyramids) and 'volume' (as in the interior of the Pantheon).  The distinction between 'vantage point' (from which something is seen, or understood to be seen) and 'vanishing point' (the simplest being where those railroad tracks, in one-point perspective, appear to meet in the perception of distance).  Not all perspective is linear (vanishing points pertain especially to rendering things like architectural frameworks) and atmospheric perspective pertains to the reduction of clarity and color saturation and hue (the early Renaissance rule of thumb: brown earth in foreground, green in middle distance, blues as you near the horizon, can be seen in many Flemish paintings, for instance).

Of course, I have no trouble seeing what you-all mean when you say 'perspective' for all optical effects, or as many of them as occur on coins.  Any good editor, however, would blue-pencil a lot.

Pat L.

Absolutely understandable, and this adds clarity, thank you very much.
At first, i was actually wondering about the presence of depth into coins, that's why i posted the Larissa coin.
But is a good idea to add some interesting coins, depicting interesting angles into the way the objects were drawn. Such effects adds very much to overall impression a coin gives. Maybe we could change the title of the topic into someting like "interesting optical effects into ancient coins".  :)


Offline commodus

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2010, 07:25:21 pm »
A couple of Roman provincial examples depicting temples. Top is Helipolis, Septimius Severus. Bottom is Zeugma, Otacilia Severa.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline slokind

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2010, 01:39:13 am »
Ah, now these are perspective: isometric for Heliopolis/Baalbek and the approximation of one-point linear perspective commonly seen in ancient art, described for stage scenery of the late 5th c. BCE and found in a number of wall paintings at Pompeii.
I took the exquisite use of fainter engraving for the colt on the Larisa coin as a very sensitive attempt to adapt atmospheric principles, farther ~ fainter, to die engraving.  That is why I found it so impressive.
Pat L.

Offline dafnis

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Re: The use of perspective on ancient coins
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2010, 07:17:39 pm »
a truly interesting post, and great coins!
For those of you capable of reading Spanish, herewith a link to a great study of perspective from an ancient architecture in coins standpoint, by a collector and member of the www.denarios.org forum.

http://www.denarios.org/anexes/arquitectura/Sistemas%20de%20Repr%20arquit%20en%20la%20numismtica%20romana.pdf


 

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