Classical Numismatics Discussion Board
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 25, 2014, 01:43:10 pm
Search Calendar Login Register  

Recent Additions to Forum's Shop


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Biblical & Judean Coins (Moderators: Salem Alshdaifat, Aarmale)  |  Topic: Rare barbaric Pilatus' prutah 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Rare barbaric Pilatus' prutah  (Read 5479 times)
Orpio
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 344



« on: November 22, 2010, 01:54:07 pm »

Hi,
Please see below coin. It is barbaric version of Pontius Pilatus' prutah (on the reverse is like LIN but the obverse is completely barbaric letter. I think that is quite rare because is not J.P. Fontanille wrote me that has never seen such type of this coin. My question is: what means barbaric prutah? It meant that it was died without Roman control? Maybe engravers were illiterate and made crude issues (it is typical for Hasmonean coins)?
Maybe who knows any reference to barbaric coins (I have GBC 5th edition and TJC but about irregular coins is very little information) Wink


Best regards,

Piotr
Logged
Aarmale
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1580


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2010, 02:03:58 pm »

I would think its illiterate die cutters.  What makes this coin so rare, though?  Rare date?  Rare inscription?

-Aarmale
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Orpio
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 344



« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2010, 02:29:20 pm »

Quote
What makes this coin so rare, though?  Rare date?  Rare inscription?

I suppose that coin is rare because: expert of Pilatus coins wrote me that has never seen such type of coin, on his web this coin is not mentioned:

http://www.menorahcoinproject.org/h649_21.htm

Please notice that is similary to die R2 - but inscription on the reverse is retrograde but in my coin is normally. Similary is also the wreath. On my coin (and coins from die R2) is difference than on typical PP' prutah (is similary to Hasmonean coins).
Logged
Aarmale
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1580


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2010, 05:11:32 pm »

I suppose that coin is rare because: expert of Pilatus coins wrote me that has never seen such type of coin, on his web this coin is not mentioned:...
I understand.  I meant what doe the script say?

The obverse has the date looks like L Greek_Iota Greek_Nu, a rare date.
I think its the other side that makes this coin so interesting.  The script looks like a series of CGreek_Upsilon_2 s .
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Robert_Brenchley
Comitia Curiata X
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7551

Honi soit qui mal y pense.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2010, 03:11:56 pm »

TJC notes that there are many crude examples of this issue, with the date and/or inscription blundered. Mostly they're from Years 17 and 18 (LIZ and LIH; he doesn't mention LIN). You've got one with both blundered; my guess is that the N is actually Z turned on its side. I = 10,  N = 60, but the combination makes little sense.
Logged

Robert Brenchley

My gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
Joe Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM STAFF
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5896


All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.


WWW
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2010, 06:30:09 pm »

Pilate coins like this often sell for hundreds of dollars.  You are welcome to send it to Forum on consignment!
Logged

Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Orpio
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 344



« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 12:58:20 am »

Quote
Robert_Brenchley:
Insert Quote
TJC notes that there are many crude examples of this issue, with the date and/or inscription blundered. Mostly they're from Years 17 and 18 (LIZ and LIH; he doesn't mention LIN). You've got one with both blundered; my guess is that the N is actually Z turned on its side. I = 10,  N = 60, but the combination makes ittle sense when X = 60.

Robert, I know that it isn't new version of Pilatus' prutah. IT is variety of type LIZ. For me this coin is not probably official issue, maybe barbaric one with strange letters on the obverse and mistake on the reverse. I mentioned above that the wreath is different than typcial prutah of lituus.

Maybe someone know any references to articles, books where is described what means barbaric coins of Roman governmants? Was it official die, or not? Who struck such coins?
Logged
Snegovik
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 752



« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 06:53:47 am »

TJC notes that there are many crude examples of this issue, with the date and/or inscription blundered. Mostly they're from Years 17 and 18 (LIZ and LIH; he doesn't mention LIN). You've got one with both blundered; my guess is that the N is actually Z turned on its side. I = 10,  N = 60, but the combination makes ittle sense when X = 60.

I agree. Year 60 does not make sense at all. It can not be reignal year of Tiberius, like other Pilate's coins are dated. I have one like this with Z retrograde.
Logged

Illegitimi non carborundum
Aarmale
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1580


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 02:24:25 pm »

Maybe someone know any references to articles, books where is described what means barbaric coins of Roman governmants? Was it official die, or not? Who struck such coins?
The only reference I can think of is Fontanille's book "The Coins of Pontius Pilate" (USA, September 2001, ISBN: 0-9677201-4-1).
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Aarmale
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1580


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 03:17:09 pm »

Mostly they're from Years 17 and 18 (LIZ and LIH; he doesn't mention LIN). You've got one with both blundered; my guess is that the N is actually Z turned on its side.
It seems Fontanille thinks otherwise...
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Robert_Brenchley
Comitia Curiata X
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7551

Honi soit qui mal y pense.


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2010, 03:41:52 pm »

Perhaps we should ask him why he thinks Pilate would be marking Tiberius' Year 60!
Logged

Robert Brenchley

My gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
Aarmale
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1580


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2010, 03:50:27 pm »

It seem like he thinks LIN is a variety of LIH, not LIZ.
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
John K
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 109

"Moneychanger" US$'s become shekels & prutahs!


« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2010, 08:09:10 pm »

Fontanille: “The Coins of Pontius Pilate

p. 58f
2) The coin of year 30: Dated “LIZ”, that coin presents many variants:

e) “LIN”: For the moment, this variant is only known on a coin bearing a countermark. … it’s really a matter of “LIN” related to “LIZ”, for the inverted “Z” is precise, and not of “LIN” relating to “LIH”, where the cross-bar of the “H” is not straight.

p.62
3) The coins of the year 31: Dates “LIH”, variants are far less common than in the issue of year 30 coins:

c) “LIN”: This variant, apparently rather rare, is not of the crude type and is unlisted in the available sources. The transverse bar of the “H” is not quite horizontal but inclined downward, from left to right, so making it into an “N”, (the engraver seems to have tried to rectify his mistake). This variant should not be confused with the “LIN” which is associated with the date “LIZ” (year 30) which clearly represents an inverted “Z”.
Logged

Orpio
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 344



« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2010, 12:57:14 am »

John K thanks!

Sorry I don't understand: Fontaille mentioned two types with LIN? One as variety of LIZ and other as LIH? Maybe in this book are attached as photos og these coins?

Could you send me photos of these pages?
Logged
Robert_Brenchley
Comitia Curiata X
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7551

Honi soit qui mal y pense.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2010, 09:56:01 am »

That's quite plausible given the amount of blundering we find.  Pics would be useful!
Logged

Robert Brenchley

My gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
John K
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 109

"Moneychanger" US$'s become shekels & prutahs!


« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2010, 08:31:53 am »

Orpio,

Yes, Fontaille does note two types with "LIN".   Yes, there are photos in the text. The photo for the "LIH" variety is actually the same photo that Aarmale posted previously - it is the last coin of the three lower line of coins on the right.

The photo for the "LIZ" variety:
Logged

Aarmale
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1580


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2010, 10:16:56 am »

I wrote to Fontanille about this subject, and he writes:

To me, the date LIN is not a variety of LIH but of LIZ.
 
There are big differences in cutting a 'H' or a 'N'. But cutting a 'N' is exactly the same work as cutting a 'Z'. Simply, the orientation is 45 degrees different.
 
So I definitely believe LIN (normal or even retrograde) is a variety of LIZ, NOT of LIH!

Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Orpio
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 344



« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2010, 04:57:21 am »

Thanks John, Aarmale!

Quote
Simply, the orientation is 45 degrees different.

I think, that 90 degrees.  Wink

My coin is barbic version of LIZ.  Smiley

I have second matter: the wreath is different than typical prutah of Pilatus. I found similary example with Menorah Coins Project - it is very interesing with LIN (but letters are retrograde) also. Letter X which in typical coins is in down of the wreath, here in in my coin and coin from MCP is on left side. BUT on the obverse coin from Menorah is typical, my coin has combination letter CV. What do you think about it?
Logged
Aarmale
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1580


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2010, 08:37:19 am »

It seems you have an unlisted rare obverse and reverse die.
The closest I can get to the reverse is:

as I posted above. 
Fontanille writes "...I definitely believe LIN (normal or even retrograde) is a variety of LIZ, NOT of LIH!", although he categorized the picture under Hendin 650 (LIH).  He may have changed his mind from his previous thinking of thinking LIN is from LIH to LIN is from LIZ.

Your coin has a rare year, rare wreath, rare legend, and all unlisted.
Congratulations!

-Aarmale

EDIT: I have attached some photos of the dies of your coin that I made.
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Orpio
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 344



« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2010, 12:01:53 pm »

Thanks Aarmale, nice pics!

Logged
Aarmale
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1580


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2010, 03:05:37 pm »

I found another coin with the same dies as yours, sold by the Menorah Coin Store (Sale 12, Feb. 2010 #12).
The description is:

Pontius Pilate 26-36 C.E. (Hendin 649, UNLISTED variety) Struck year 30 C.E. in Jerusalem
Exceedingly rare date variety: ''LIN'' instead of ''LIZ''. Interestingly, the same variety, but retrograde, was already listed and published (see coin at left., only 3 specimens are known: Click here and scroll down to die R2 to see all of them). So the specimen offered here is the very first ever seen. By chance, the date is complete and very clear.





There is a solid border around the lituus. The Greek_Kappa is retrograde, and it looks like (from the composite) it says "reversedK Greek_Alpha Greek_Alpha Greek_Rho Greek_Omicron C" or something similar.

I can now see that your coin does not say CGreek_Upsilon_2 s, but rather "[TI]BEPIOU KAI..."
The first C is actually the rounded top left part of the letter Greek_Beta.

Heres this coin with your coin's legends added on (in purple), a composite of the two coins, and the new text drawn on.

I can also see a little defect attached to the right of the lituus on both coins.

-Aarmale

EDIT: I just found another coin with the same dies, sold by the FORVM.

This coin does not have very much to add to the composite, so I will not remake one.

Nevertheless, this is still a rare pair of dies.
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Orpio
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 344



« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2010, 12:46:50 am »

Aarmale, thanks! I'm very gratitude for your help.

Thus my coin is very rare. Now we know only two coins of the same type and struck of the same die - it is amazing!

Could you give me any reference to last photo?

Best regards,
Piotr

Logged
Aarmale
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1580


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2010, 01:32:41 pm »

Could you give me any reference to last photo?
Do you mean the picture "pilate_comp.jpg"?  I made this picture out of the two coins put together, to form a composite, so it is easier to see what a complete coin of this type would look like. 

All the best,

Aarmale
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Orpio
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 344



« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2010, 02:06:53 pm »

Thanks Aarmale, very good job!

Now, the inscription is easier to recognize e.g. I see retrograde K very clear,  Roll Eyes My coin is probably barbaric very short issue - maybe only from one die because we know two examples from the same die.
It is very small probability found two prutots from the same die, I think so.

All the best,
Piotr
Logged
Aarmale
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1580


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2011, 02:34:46 pm »

Another one of this die sold by Menorah Coin Store, sale 23.  This is the 4th one.
Heres the description:


4. Pontius Pilate 26-36 C.E. (Hendin 649, UNLISTED variety) Struck year 30 C.E. in Jerusalem   Est.: $550 - 700 Realized: $605 (3 bids)

Exceedingly rare date variety, ''LIN'' instead of ''LIZ''. Interestingly, the same variety, but retrograde, was already listed and published (only 3 specimens are known: Click here and scroll down to die R2 to see them).



Using 3 three best of the coins, I made a new composite ("new comp.jpg"), and J.P. Fontanille was kind enough to smooth it "(new_comp NEW VERSION.jpg"). I will post both pictures.

-Aarmale
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Biblical & Judean Coins (Moderators: Salem Alshdaifat, Aarmale)  |  Topic: Rare barbaric Pilatus' prutah « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 1.502 seconds with 74 queries.