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Author Topic: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?  (Read 8768 times)

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Jean-Baptiste H

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Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« on: October 05, 2010, 03:09:25 pm »
16,7 gr, 28mm. Please, is it a copy ?

Offline areich

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2010, 05:30:36 am »
At least those pictures are better, I prefer those that show the coin as it is, not cut out and put on a new background.
While a really good cast cannot be excluded from the picture, or from most pictures in general, this coin doesn't look cast to me.
The few ancient coins I can see from his feedback page look authentic but rather low grade.
Andreas Reich

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2010, 09:29:50 am »
Casting bubbles?

Offline areich

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2010, 09:39:09 am »
You can do that to almost any picture of an ancient coin.
Andreas Reich

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2010, 09:41:21 am »
You can do that to almost any picture of an ancient coin.

Agree,but,don't you agree that these are similar looking to casting bubbles?
I am not talking about bumps in general, i am talking about the appearance of casting bubbles.These looks like not ordinary bumps,looks like casting bubbles to me.
I dont believe that every bump on a coin is a sign of forgery,however casting bubbles are casting bubbles.

Jean-Baptiste H

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2010, 09:49:28 am »
If there are casting bubbles, it seems to me it's rather in this part of the coin :

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2010, 11:04:04 am »
Jean,i guess you have got the coin in hand.
Study this image,and compare with your coin at the areas i have marked.

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-6711

What's your opinion?



   

Jean-Baptiste H

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2010, 01:49:45 pm »
Sorry, I did not answer because I did not see that your posts were on a second page.
 
it is quite possible there are casting pearls on the surface of the coin.
I understand perfectly that It is very difficult for you to know if the coin is genuine or not when you watch photos. It would be easier for you if you had the coin in hand.
Your comments are very precious for me. I am certain now that if the coin is not genuine, it is a cast fake because the style is very good.

Many thanks. You are all very competent and very learned ! I am very impressed ! :) :)

Jean-Baptiste H

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2010, 02:55:47 pm »
You are right rover1.3. There are on the coins what we call in french "grains de métal". If you are certain they are casting  pearls. It's of course a cast fake.

Offline Rich Beale

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2010, 05:54:45 pm »
Ok. Well, in my opinion, based on what I see here the coin is authentic (though a physical inspection is necessary to make a full and accurate evaluation).

Note the flow lines around the portrait and other elements of the obverse, which are normally counter-indicative of a cast.

From what I can see of the edge, though admittedly from these pictures we cannot see much, it has the appearance of a struck coin rather than cast, with the usual stiking cracks apparently evident. Are you able to take clearer pictures of the edge? Is there any evidence of a seam, or filing?

Although admittedly the reverse surface looks strange, this could be due to the method of cleaning. The obverse surface and metal look sound to me.

I don't think those look definitively like casting pearls, and I don't see any clear casting holes in the surface. Click on the picture below for a closer look - note the presence of small raised dots and dings both in the fields and around the devices. These can be caused by scratched, rusted or otherwise damaged dies, engraver error, etc.. Small raised bumps by themselves are not always proof of a cast. They must be taken in context.

Ultimately, as has been already said, the coin needs to be thoroughly inspected in hand, and I echo the suggestion for you to show this to a dealer in person.

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2010, 06:26:25 pm »
Ok. Well, in my opinion, based on what I see here the coin is authentic (though a physical inspection is necessary to make a full and accurate evaluation).

Note the flow lines around the portrait and other elements of the obverse, which are normally counter-indicative of a cast.

Although admittedly the reverse surface looks strange, this could be due to the method of cleaning. The obverse surface and metal look sound to me.

I don't think those look definitively like casting pearls, and I don't see any clear casting holes in the surface.

Ultimately, as has been already said, the coin needs to be thoroughly inspected in hand, and I echo the suggestion for you to show this to a dealer in person.

Flaw lines are  present on cast coins as well.This is covered here quite well.
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=54663.0

If the cleaning method was responsible for the look of the reverse,then the obverse should  probably look similar.
I can really see this "soft look" visible on overall coin's appearance.Wear(?),or simply because of casting.

I see these 'pearls' to be casting pearls.At least,this is how i understand this.
I think that casting pearls have a distinct look similar to those pearls on Jean's coin.

I don't doubt the need for close examination,but i am sure that they are many people,real experts here, who have already an accurate and clear opinion.Why not to hear this?
This is not a court! We just exchange opinions here about our hobby! That's all.

Offline Rich Beale

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2010, 07:13:53 pm »
- I agree, yes flow lines can be present on a high quality cast. However, in the majority of cases flow lines are a useful feature for authentication. I believe that is stated quite clearly in the thread you point out too.

- Cleaning chemicals do not always produce an even result. One side can be adversely affected, or not thoroughly cleaned (as may be the case here.. the reverse appears to display a thin layer of mineral deposit on top of the silver).

- Prominent flow lines are often present on coins struck from well used dies. The level of wear on this coin - some of which may be from circulation, some of which is probably from die wear - as well as the flow lines suggest that this coin was struck from a well used die. In this case, some small raised bumps are to be expected.

What I am trying to say is that on the available evidence - all of which must be considered together - the flow lines, the metal, surface, raised lumps etc.. I cannot condemn this coin, indeed the evidence taken together seems to suggest a struck piece.

I don't doubt the need for close examination,but i am sure that they are many people,real experts here, who have already an accurate and clear opinion.Why not to hear this?


I am sure that others will weigh in on this issue if they see fit. I would never have the temerity to declare myself to be an 'expert', but I do handle thousands of coins a year so for what it is worth I do speak from some experience.

This is not a court! We just exchange opinions here about our hobby! That's all.


I don't think anyone has suggested this is a court. I don't quite understand what you're trying to get at there. This is absolutely all about exchanging opinions and learning. :)

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2010, 07:25:13 pm »

This is not a court! We just exchange opinions here about our hobby! That's all.


I don't think anyone has suggested this is a court. I don't quite understand what you're trying to get at there. This is absolutely all about exchanging opinions and learning. :)

In a previous post of yours (now deleted probably by you),you suggested not to talk about this coin anymore, because "the horse is already dead" as you have said.
That's what made me feel i am in frond of a court. :)

Offline Rich Beale

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2010, 07:40:23 pm »
Haha, yes I removed my 'beating a dead horse' comment when I realised it wasn't particularly constructive, and instead replaced it with a more considered explanation of why I think the coin is ok. I didn't intend to suggest that the discussion should cease, but was puzzled by how the thread was going round in circles. I didn't mean to make you feel like you were on trial! :)

Offline mihali84

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2010, 08:09:19 pm »
What can be said about how off center the obverse is?

If the coin was cast, most definitely from an authentic example (based on the style), wouldn't more care be taken to make sure the design was more centered when cast?  (unless of course the host coin was also off center)

Just throwing it out there.
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2010, 08:15:46 pm »
Most casts of course exactly reproduce the centering of the original from which they derive.

If this specimen is cast, then clearly the original too was off center in exactly the same way.

However I agree with Richard B. that the coin looks authentic rather than cast, as far as one can judge from the image.
Curtis Clay

Offline El Reye

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2010, 09:25:33 pm »
Did anybody else notice the similarities of these two reverse dies? The coin on the left is the one in question in this thread.

Cameron
“We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.”
Aesop   Greek slave & fable author (620 BC - 560 BC)

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2010, 10:26:04 pm »
Did anybody else notice the similarities of these two reverse dies? The coin on the left is the one in question in this thread.

Cameron

Good eye, they look like a match to me.  (There is a bit of distortion of the coin on the left because the image was rotated.)
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Online Enodia

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2010, 12:35:21 am »
my eye is not nearly as well trained as others who have posted in this thread, but i'll throw my two obols out there anyway.

i believe that there is not enough evidence present to condemn JP's coin. it may very well be cast, but i wouldn't declare it so from what we can see.

i also am not sure that the two dies are the same. the monogram beneath the throne looks quite different, as well as the way the staff crosses in front of Zeus' arm. the outstretched arms look different to me also, but of course this may be due to wear and the different lighting.
i wouldn't bet my paycheck on it though.

~ Peter


(later that same post...)
upon further review i'm not so sure about the staff, but the monogram sure looks different.

Offline mihali84

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2010, 12:59:35 am »
Peter you are correct that the monograms beneath the throne appear to be different, but i assure you they are a match, and i would bet my paycheck on it.  ;D

Heres an animation of the two, as always there is the slightest difference in angle and of course the lighting, but the similarities are unmistakable.
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Offline Rich Beale

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2010, 05:53:47 am »
Cameron - a fine spot. Perfect die match.

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2010, 04:13:48 pm »
I hope I didn´t miss a posting but when I look at the pictures in posts 16 (the disputed coin) and 17 (a coin from acsearch) I think that the obverses are not only similar but from the same dies.

At first glance the styles look different, but probably due to different lighting.

If you compare the obverses detail by detail they seem the same.

I'm going to have to agree with you on this.  The coin posted by Jean-Baptiste H in reply 17 is an obverse/reverse die match to the coin in question here.  The obverses also share the same flow lines, most visible in front of Heracles' forehead, which i pointed out below.
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Offline curtislclay

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2010, 09:08:50 pm »
Identical flow lines on 2 die matched examples are absolutely an indication of cast forgery and should be considered as such.

Maybe this was just meant as a joke, but it is, I think, totally incorrect!

"Flow lines" are actual wear ON THE DIE ITSELF, and therefore any two genuine coins struck from the same dies in the same state of deterioration, will inevitably show the identical flow lines.
Curtis Clay

Offline commodus

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2010, 09:11:24 pm »
Quote from: commodus on October 07, 2010, 08:58:56 pm
Yes, Rover, it is there are many potential indicators of forgery, cast or otherwise. However, I was not talking about these. I was talking about price only.
A low price, in and of itself, is no indicator of fakery nor is a high price, in and of itself, an indicator that a coin is genuine.
I wasn't speaking of other indicators and would not have brought it up had its low price not been brought into the discussion.
However, die matches and flow lines are not necessarily indicators of fakery and certainly not of "cast forgery."


Dear commodus, i just like the "dogmatic" style of your previous post and wanted to imitate it,that's all.

Fair enough. It can be difficult to convey the spirit in which a posting is made over the internet. Sometimes impossible.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Tetradrachm of Alexander : a copy ?
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2010, 09:21:04 pm »
Identical flow lines on 2 die matched examples are absolutely an indication of cast forgery and should be considered as such.

Maybe this was just meant as a joke, but it is, I think, totally incorrect!

"Flow lines" are actual wear ON THE DIE ITSEF, and therefore any two genuine coins struck from the same dies in the same state of deterioration, will inevitably show the identical flow lines.

Really?
I thought that flow lines were a completely 'random' result,which has to do with heat,hammer blow dynamics and other factors which make them unique from coin to coin.
I thought that "die rust" was something like actual "wear" on the die,but die rust is another,different thing,and this has nothing to do with what we see here as flow lines.

Commodus,you finally agree or disagree with me here?
You said you agree before,but changed your mind and your post quickly!

 

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