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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Identification Help (Moderators: Steve Minnoch, Varangian, casata137ec)  |  Topic: Caligula Denarius 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Caligula Denarius  (Read 4353 times)
Chris W3
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« on: September 12, 2010, 05:45:41 pm »

Hello

This is my first post on your excellent forum which I came across researching a coin I found metal detecting in Yorkshire today .

Firstly .......... Hi there ..........


I have been detecting for around 18 months and have found several denarius but I think this one is a bit of a rarity

I would like your advice on the identification and if its allowed on this forum a possible value.

Many Thanks

Chris

Oswaldtwistle ..........Lancashire ........England



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Gavignano
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 07:24:46 pm »

it would be a rare denarius of Caligula and Germanicus if authentic, but i'm not sure it is authentic, others will need to chime in.
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Chris W3
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 07:53:41 pm »

it would be a rare denarius of Caligula and Germanicus if authentic, but i'm not sure it is authentic, others will need to chime in.

Hello there .......... as for the authenticity of this coin I understand there are many reproductions available .......... I personally dug this coin earlier today on a known Roman site ..........

If anyone has any doubts concerning this i will happily send the coin to TimeLines or Wildwind for authentification . Sam Moorhead from the British Museum is giving a talk at our local club in a few weeks and will give his opinion on the coin ,,, its the real thing I promise you

I dug a gorgeous Roman brooch on the same site a few months ago a few yards from the location the coin was found

Ooops Im rambling on a bit and I do understand that the majority of these are copies ......... just not this one

Thanks

Chris
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renegade3220
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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 08:57:03 pm »


I personally dug this coin earlier today on a known Roman site ..........

Chris

It came out looking like that? If not, what did you have to do to clean it?

I hope the experts chime in.  Nobody will argue that you dug it up, it is just that sometimes people do bury fakes in known sites.  Not at all saying this is the case, but that thought goes through peoples minds.

Hope it pans out positively for you.  I would love to see a picture of the brooch.  That would be interesting to get a change to look at!!!!
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2010, 09:28:27 pm »

I personally don't like the looks of it. The ears are odd, there's what look like casting pearls on it. It just has an odd appearance. No expert by a long shot but I wouldn't buy it with my ex wife's wallet.
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Mark Z
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2010, 09:32:07 pm »

I personally don't like the looks of it. The ears are odd, there's what look like casting pearls on it. It just has an odd appearance. No expert by a long shot but I wouldn't buy it with my ex wife's wallet.

Agreed. There's plenty not to like, including the fact that this one pops up as a denarius AND an aureus in the Fakes Reports, though there are no exact matches.

Not crazy about his "milk mustache," either, although that could be merely a trick of the light.

Something else that strikes me as strange is that you would be allowed to dig at a "known Roman site."

If you feel it's genuine, this is a big-time coin that deserves to be authenticated...soon, and without further ado.

mz
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Will Hooton
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« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2010, 03:00:23 am »


Something else that strikes me as strange is that you would be allowed to dig at a "known Roman site."

If you feel it's genuine, this is a big-time coin that deserves to be authenticated...soon, and without further ado.

mz

I'm going to go against the current of opinion and declare I am not confident in condemning this coin, but I can't authenticate it either.

Mark, there are many "known Roman sites" in the UK, but the majority of these have not been declared archaeologically sensitive. When a detectorist digs on what he refers to as a "known Roman site" he is referring to a site that produces Roman finds. For the authorities it remains just a field, unless there is provable archaeological significance.
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Mark Z
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« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2010, 07:41:04 am »


Something else that strikes me as strange is that you would be allowed to dig at a "known Roman site."

If you feel it's genuine, this is a big-time coin that deserves to be authenticated...soon, and without further ado.

mz

I'm going to go against the current of opinion and declare I am not confident in condemning this coin, but I can't authenticate it either.

Mark, there are many "known Roman sites" in the UK, but the majority of these have not been declared archaeologically sensitive. When a detectorist digs on what he refers to as a "known Roman site" he is referring to a site that produces Roman finds. For the authorities it remains just a field, unless there is provable archaeological significance.

Will,

I didn't realize that. Guess I was going on my experience here in the US, where everything stops immediately when a site of any archaeological significance is unearthed and the area is essentially cordoned off and protected. My apologies to Chris.

Again, I urge Chris to take his coin to the BM (for example) to get it authenticated. 

Will, thanks for that! Smiley

mz
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areich
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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2010, 08:07:15 am »

Aren't the liaison officers from the Portable Antiquities Sheme qualified for this?
They will have seen the coin.
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Will Hooton
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« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2010, 08:26:09 am »

Mark, no problem! Smiley

Chris, your coin is of this type here: http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=14312

Fingers crossed for you that it's authentic.

Aren't the liaison officers from the Portable Antiquities Sheme qualified for this?
They will have seen the coin.


Assuming it was reported! Wink
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Chris W3
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2010, 01:08:13 pm »

Hello there

Thanks for the kind and honest comments and looking at the fakes available i see why there may be some doubt surrounding this coin ....... especially when you look at some of the values being sugested on some old posts , I was not aware there was such a big industry in replica coins .

The coin is exactly as found Renegade apart from a quick wash under the tap ...... glad i resisted the temptaion to give it a quick polish  Smiley

 There are many thousands of fields in the Uk Mark where , with the landowners permission , you can detect perfectly legally . Also many clubs like ours have regular organised days out and if you ever find yourself in the Uk let me know and Ill set up a few days detecting for you.

Renegade I have added a couple of pics of the brooch as you requested ..... this was found about 50 feet from the coin a few months ago.

The Portable Antiquties scheme are recording the coin this week and I have sent some pics to Sam Moorhead who has compared them with a coin in the British Museum where he is in charge of the Ancient coins sectionand he is fairly confident its genuine . He is coming to look at it on 1st November to give me a final verdict

Thanks for the link Mark ......... that one made good money eh

I think Ive covered all the formalities and Ill keep you posted how it all goes

Thanks again

Chris



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Mark Z
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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2010, 02:39:38 pm »

Chris,

Good luck!

Hope to see more of you around FORVM.

mz

p.s. You never know, I just might take you up on your offer Wink

mz
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2010, 02:53:42 pm »

The style looks okay to me. If it is genuine -- and from the photos I see absolutely nothing about the coin to indicate that it isn't -- you have found yourself a very scarce and valuable item.
Please keep us posted on this. I am most interested to hear more as you learn it!
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2010, 03:40:30 pm »

Yes, keep us informed!  I am jealous...  And yes, if real, which is looking good for you from what I can tell, you just made some serious cash if you sell it.
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2010, 04:56:27 pm »

 I collect ancient roman coins and have been metal detecting here in the U.S. for over 30 years,I have to say that I am very envious of your find. If only the U.S. were older maybe we here would have a chance at your good luck an experience. Good luck in the future!
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« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2010, 02:09:00 am »

You can find all kinds of marks on ancient coins and why should you send the coin to Sear if the PAS are available and likewise the British Museum?
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Will Hooton
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« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2010, 02:38:56 am »


It just has some very off characteristics, almost a cartoonish portrait of Germanicus. I still think there are casting pearls on Caligula,



I don't agree. The style is typical for this type. And not every little bump should be interpreted as casting pearls. Compare with this specimen below.
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Romanorvm
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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2010, 07:24:47 am »

I wouldn't even compare the two styles. No comparison. It may well be real but with the circumstances and everything else put together I would question it. 
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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2010, 08:59:22 am »

The denarii of Caligula with bare head are of a different style than the denarii with laureate head, especially the lettering. That's one reason why RIC assigns them to different mints, Lugdunum and Rome (but mentions that this is disputed).

Denarii of Caligula are often ugly as hell. If the style of the piece in question is possible I can't tell.

Stefan
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Will Hooton
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« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2010, 09:11:15 am »

Ah indeed. I had attached the wrong pic! I meant to attach the one I had linked to earlier.
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« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2010, 09:18:59 am »

I agree that the style is correct. If you want to characterize them that way I'd say that all examples I've seen (in hand or in pictures) look a bit cartoonish. It's the non-cartoonish ones that would concern me!
Areich said above exactly what I was about to write: with the PAS and BM available, why send it to Sear? I respect and trust Sear but if you're getting their expert opinions already, why reinvent the wheel?
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
Chris W3
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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2010, 05:26:29 pm »

Hello again folks

I have been doing more research on the coin I detected recently

Some doubt has been expressed as to its authenticity and being impatient and still awaiting the British museum report I have added it it to the UKDFD site

Looking good so far ............ to be honest I have no doubts myself as it was me who dug it up Smiley

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=27232&limit=recent

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Mark Z
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2010, 05:40:15 pm »

Hi Chris!

I was just checking out the website. Who is the "validated by" person? Is he the person who authenticates the coin or does he just validate the upload?

So you have found all those coins listed at the site? Cool!

mz
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« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2010, 12:59:48 am »

Thought I would bump this one up. Has this been evaluated yet?
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Chris W3
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« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2010, 02:26:26 pm »

Hello again

Well things look good

I met with Sam Moorhead last night from the British Museum

http://www.britishmuseum.org/the_museum/about_us/staff/portable_antiquities_treasure/t_sam_n_moorhead.aspx

He has confirmed the authenticity of the coin  Smiley not that I ever doubted it but its good to have

He has also told me it will be listed in " Brittanica " an annual publication of Roman finds of note in the UK

The Portable antiquities officer for our area has on Sams request added it to their database.

I think this is enough corroboration for any coin to be guaranteed genuine so I now have to decide whether to sell or not .......... Xmas is coming and the money would be handy

Decisions , decisions

Chris
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