Aelius Fouree

[klausklage]

Hi there,

I would like to hear your opinions on this coin. It was bought from a reliable American seller on eBay. Some friends (who understand much more about ancient coins than I do) think that this was more likely to be a modern forgery from Bulgaria, given its style and the unusual silver layer. What do you say?

Olaf

[SRukke]

Pros: As far as I can tell there are no die matches in the fake reports here or on The Forgery Network.

Cons: Appears to be loaded with casting pits. But that could just be the pictures.

From the pictures I don't like it, mainly due to what looks like casting pits.

[justus]

Although there are no die matches to find among the popular fake reports, in my opinion there are a lot of similarities with bulgarian casts of Dimitrovgrad Studio typus.

regards Jürgen

[Mark Z]

While it's true that this coin does not match anything in the Fakes Reports, this one is the dreaded RIC 436, of which there are many iterations (including the one in my black cabinet!).

Also worthy of note is the "CONCORD" in the reverse exergue, which is interesting in that there is no "D" in it. I don't think I've ever seen anything like that. Also, the "R" (if it is an R) is kind of odd looking, isn't it?

I would tread lightly here if I were you. My advice is to return it and buy one from FORVM.

Good luck!
mz

[areich]

Would modern forgeries of plated denarii be cast?

[commodus]

Would modern forgeries of plated denarii be cast?

This is a good question and one I was wondering about myself.
Is really it plausible that someone has produced a modern fake of an ancient counterfeit?

[quisquam]

Would modern forgeries of plated denarii be cast?

I don't think it's possible that fourrees are cast, ancient or modern.

Is really it plausible that someone has produced a modern fake of an ancient counterfeit?

Yes, it's plausible. Wrong style is not a big problem, it's even expected, and buyers are less distrustful.

Stefan

[dltcoins]

Modern fakes of ancient counterfeits of rare types have appeared on the market occasionally. A fake fourree Claudius denarius comes to mind, as does a fake Brutus EID MAR fourree. Genuine ancient plated denarii (fourrees) are usually revealed when the copper core corrodes below the surface and subsequently erupts through the silver plating, resulting in a blistered surface with variously colored copper corrosion visible below.

[Pscipio]

I was the one who originally questioned the coin because the style looked modern to me (and it still does).

Modern fakes of fourrées have appeared on the market more often lately, I recall a Tranquillina, a Clodius Macer, a Caligula, and others. It's very easy to pass modern fakes of plated coins on to dealers and collectors even if the style is completely wrong - most people don't look closely at them. They're "just fourrées", after all.

Lars

[dougsmit]

While I find it hard to believe that someone would fake a Claudius fourree, EID MAR is a completely fifferent matter.  If I were doing it, I'd start with a genuine ancient fourree of the general time of the EID MAR which can be had for a reasonable cost and overstrike it with enough pressure to erase the undertype but hoping to leave just enough evidence that it was fourree since plated EID MAR sell well and being fourree could fool people like me into thinking the item was ancient.  

The Aelius is obviously not official style.  Being able to make a believable fourree blank would suggest an operation that would be able to make a better die than this.  It is not cast.  I'd love to see a cast fourree with proper plating.  That leaves the question of this being an ancient fake or modern by someone better at flans than at dies.  There well could be die matches of the coin but ancient or modern, I believe the coin is struck or pressed so they would not be identical in every way as expected of cast clones.  I'd feel a lot better about it being ancient if the obverse seam were a little stronger since the few fourrees of this period I have seen have had thinner silver and better die work.  Does anyone have an image to show of a fourree of similar date with this barbarous style?  

I'll show a Sabina in poor preservation but with style and fabric I'd call closer to normal for the period.  

Lars:  Do you have links to the modern fourrees you mention?

[Pscipio]

We have discussed some here before. Two examples: attached, a plated Tranquillina from modern dies that also exists in solid silver (see https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-6487)

And a Caligula, also both as fourrée and as solid silver fake:

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-6342
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-4289

Both are quite obvious fakes when produced in solid silver, but fooled two well-known auction houses as fourrées.

I can only repeat: look closely when buying plated coins of rare and/or popular emperors.

Lars

[dougsmit]

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?pos=-6342

I have no answer for the Tranqillina but the Caligula is a very strange fourree.  If you are making a fourree and want to hide the fact that there is copper below, you would avoid a super strong strike that would create a core revealing edged split the size of the ones on this coin.  The one in front could be a test cut but the one behind Caligula's head seems to continue as a crack beyond the fully split section so it looks more like a crack in the photo.  This would require seeing the coin to be more certain.   However, if you were overstriking on an old fourree and wanted to erase the undertype but knew the result would be spotted as a fourree since it already had core exposure, you would hit hard.  Note that there is no wear on the Caligula to the core on ears or high letters as is often seen on worn fourrees.  The point of the bust has a break so may be proving me wrong.  Note also that above the legend on the Agrippina side there is a shadow of what could possibly be not-quite erased undertype legend.  This coin shows what I would expect if you were to overstrike modern dies on an ancient fourree.  While it is certainly possible to make a fourree blank, it would be easier to use one from a low value coin. 

Definitely it is not safe to accept a coin as ancient just because it is fourree! 

[quisquam]

This is my example of the same fake Caligula fourree. The copper core looks through on this one, too. But it looks more like artificial corrosion, contrary to mechanical doctoring on the fake already in the reports (if this one is not struck on an authentic fourree. I think this is not an option for my specimen.).

Click to enlarge.

Stefan

[commodus]

Well, as the saying goes, we learn something new every day.
This is a very interesting thread. I have put so much effort into studying modern fakes of official coins that modern fakes of ancient fakes have eluded my radar altogther!

[klausklage]

Thanks to all of you for sharing your opinion. Meanwhile the seller has agreed to take the coin back. Although we have not been able to reach a definitive conclusion here as to the authenticity, I could probably never really enjoy a piece whose origion has been subject to such serious doubt.
Olaf

[Mark Z]

Thanks to all of you for sharing your opinion. Meanwhile the seller has agreed to take the coin back. Although we have not been able to reach a definitive conclusion here as to the authenticity, I could probably never really enjoy a piece whose origion has been subject to such serious doubt.
Olaf

Right!

"If you're not feeling it, return it!"

mz