Another rare Caracalla denarius

[silvernut]

I am posting this here as I believe it's an interesting and rare (?) denarius of Caracalla worth showing. It was sold yesterday at an auction in Barcelona (I didn't bid on it) not too expensively (but then, it's probably only worth a premium to specialized collectors).

Anyway, it is the first time I see this type on offer anywhere, and it is apparently missing from the BM collection when BMCRE was printed.

Laureate, drapen and cuirassed bust right.
ANTONINVS PIVS AVG
ROMA AETERNA
Roma seated left.
RIC 143; RSC 554a; BMCRE mentions the type but from L.A. Lawrence collection

Regards,
Ignasi

[curtislclay]

It looks convincing, but it's from the same dies as the aureus (below), so one has to wonder whether it might be an accomplished modern reproduction derived from an aureus.

Gold quinarii and silver quinarii still share dies under Septimius, but not, as a rule, aurei and denarii, because the aureus dies were larger and finer than the denarius dies.

Domitian, 82-3 AD, could be called the parting of the ways for aureus and denarius dies: before then, aurei and denarii were regularly struck from the same dies, but after then aureus dies became larger and finer than denarius dies so there could no longer be die sharing. There are only a few later exceptions, for example some die sharing between the two denominations under Hadrian in 117, e.g. BMC pl. 46, 1 (aureus), 2 (denarius), same rev. die.

[silvernut]

I hadn't for a moment suspected this coin, but seeing the evidence, it makes me wonder!! It comes from a well known auction house, but I don't think they are specialists in Roman coinage, so this one may have skipped through, if it's indeed a reproduction.

But the type does exist, right? In denarii, I mean...

Regards,
Ignasi

[curtislclay]

No, this denarius is not yet verified, since the only other reference is a specimen in L.A. Lawrence Coll. that is mentioned in BMC.

I don't think I have seen that coin, and if it were authentic it would probably have gone to the BM or Oxford, both of whom were able to select hundreds and hundreds of coins from the Lawrence collection before it was auctioned off.

So until an undoubted denarius in the expected size and style appears, I suspect the Lawrence piece of having been a modern reproduction derived from an aureus, like (probably) the Barcelona coin.

[SRukke]

I notice the denarius has a what appears to be a 2nd row of border dots or that the border dots may have been partially flattened. what would cause this and could this be an indication of how it may have been made? It doesn't look natural.
But the coin overall looks very deceptive. I would not have known.

[Greyshadow]

Hi !

I´m very interesting in this coin because... I bought it  on the last Aureo auction !!

I also have seen the same aureus and for that reason had a great interest for buy this coin.

Now, looking your suspicion, I offer to provide the information  you need to clarify this question.

Greetings from Spain.

Ps: Ignasi, you´re great!

[Joe Sermarini]

A close examination under a microscope will probably confirm the denarius is cast. 

[silvernut]

Hola Greyshadow,

I do not see how it can be cast if it is of a different diameter than the aureus Dr Clay showed here. However, if it is larger than the average denarius, which might be the reason behind its heavy weight (over 4 gr), then it can definitely be a cast copy (a good one, I must say!).

So, can you tell us the diameter of the dot circles, please? Thank you for your kind offer!

Regards,
Ignasi

[Greyshadow]

Hi at all;

The dot circle diameter is 18 mm and total diameter is 20 mm. Your weight is exactly 4,03 grs.

I have seen this coin with the microscope and can´t see anyone signal of died... I think really may be  a cast copy. But I´m not an expert and I´d like you helping me for confirm that suspect.

[Greyshadow]

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[Greyshadow]

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[Greyshadow]

I can only upload one image every post, is this correct or I made something wrong?

Regards.

[Durmius]

[Joe Sermarini]

I think a cast of the most difficult to detect quality. 

[Greyshadow]

Thank you for your response Joe, really is a very sad example of the dangers of our hobby!!

I have made a short film to share with you all. I hope you can to dispel your doubts.

I would like to know exactly what you don´t like, what makes you suspect ... I want to learn more!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CanlOdhaX68&feature=channel

Regards.

[Joe Sermarini]

There isn't much to make one suspect, other than it is struck with aureus dies.  If Curtis hadn't pointed that out, I might be saying I think it is genuine.  I don't see anything beyond the types of things with the red squares around them above.  Normal casting flaws but on a very small scale.  I have had a few casts of this quality.  In hand, the overall surfaces look wrong on the examples I have had.  But not so wrong that they would automatically condemn the coin.  All of the casting flaws are the type that in most cases I would not notice until I saw a duplicate coin.  They are also flaws so similar to what might be found on a genuine coin that it is difficult to decide if they are casting flaws.  Unless I noticed the charicteristic surface for these casts or it was an extremely rare or expensive type, it would be difficult to spot this as a fake in the course of day-to-day authentication and attribution.  A few casts of this quality have made it into Forum's catalog and been removed from the catalog when a duplicate was spotted.  A couple have been recalled from customers after sale (when it happens, we send an email informing the buyer). 

[silvernut]

Yes, a very dangerous fake, if it turns out to be cast.

Also, very confusing! I can't understand why someone would choose to make a replica of a type not known to exist for certain in silver when, having the moulds and the superior technique, they could have produced copies in gold! These are definitely known to exist and the margin must surely be higher for the counterfeiter!

Very strange...

Regards,
Ignasi

[Robert_Brenchley]

Not only that, they'd be more likely to pass scrutiny. Would we have spotted this if it hadn't been for the unexpected metal?

[Joe Sermarini]

Gold is much more likely to receive a very careful inspection and corrosion and encrustation cannot be used to cover up or explain casting flaws. 

[Aarmale]

Not only that, they'd be more likely to pass scrutiny. Would we have spotted this if it hadn't been for the unexpected metal?

Good point... If it was gold, no one would probably notice.  If this coin really is fake, the forgers are getting more creative every day.  If this coin is real, its very nice and interesting!

Detailed video, by the way.

[Jay GT4]

So the question is...will it be sent to be inspected in hand?

[Greyshadow]

After inspection with 40X microscope I think there is no doubt the coin is cast.However I´m not an expert...

What do you think now? :

[Greyshadow]

[Greyshadow]

[Greyshadow]