Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. STORE WIDE SALE!!! 10% OFF EVERYTHING UNTIL 20 OCTOBER Layaway and reserve are not available during the sale. Shop NOW and save! Welcome Guest. Please login or register. STORE WIDE SALE!!! 10% OFF EVERYTHING UNTIL 20 OCTOBER Please call us if you have questions 252-646-1958. Shop NOW and save!


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Time to Speak Out 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Time to Speak Out  (Read 57378 times)
William A2
Auxiliary

Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2010, 04:05:40 pm »

I just sent a fax of my own.
Logged
Bud Stewart
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 578



« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2010, 09:45:52 am »

I just posted Joe's e-mail, including a link to ACCG, on my 'Facebook'.
Logged

goldenancients
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1012


Danny Jones


WWW
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2010, 10:12:26 am »

FAX COUNT UPDATE:

"Faxes from 1446 discrete addresses opposing import restrictions on ancient coins from Italy have been logged through the ACCG Fax Wizard as of 11:00 PM CST, Saturday April 17."


Time is running out! You have until Thursday, April 22 to send in you fax and let your voice be heard.
Logged

goldenancients
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1012


Danny Jones


WWW
« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2010, 10:28:04 am »

I just posted Joe's e-mail, including a link to ACCG, on my 'Facebook'.

That's a great idea. I did the same. Hopefully it will muster a few more faxes.
Logged

Aarmale
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1530


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2010, 10:38:20 am »

I do not collect coins from Italy, nor do I live in USA, but I just sent the fax. Wink

I strongly hope this restriction does not happen.

I know I would be enraged if coins were not allowed out of Israel.
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Aarmale
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1530


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2010, 07:44:59 pm »

FAX COUNT UPDATE:

"Faxes from 1446 discrete addresses opposing import restrictions on ancient coins from Italy have been logged through the ACCG Fax Wizard as of 11:00 PM CST, Saturday April 17."


Time is running out! You have until Thursday, April 22 to send in you fax and let your voice be heard.
FAX COUNT UPDATE:

"Faxes from 1463 discrete addresses opposing import restrictions on ancient coins from Italy have been logged through the ACCG Fax Wizard as of 11:00 PM CST, Sunday April 18."


17 more faxes have been sent via ACCG Fax Wizard from Saturday to Sunday.  We need more!  You must submit before Thursday, April 22.
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
Rupert
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1919



« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2010, 12:28:30 pm »

Although I'm German, I sent my fax too now (hope someone is reading it after I made up my mind for so long about what to write).

Because if Italy will succeed in getting all Roman coins back that are sent to the US, next it will want all Roman coins from within the US. And then from EU countries. And then every country will follow their example; Turkey will want Asia Minor coins, Egypt those from Alexandria, the Taliban from Afghanistan will want all Bactrian coins so they can destroy them, and so on.

Principiis obsta!

Rupert
Logged

Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.
Enodia
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2049


~ For My Star ~


« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2010, 02:06:07 pm »

so we know exactly what we're up against here is the similar fax campaign being run by the AIA...

http://www.archaeological.org/webinfo.php?page=10573

and remember, that worn out old Constantine AE you bought at a show last year for $12 is destroying Italy's cultural heritage!

~ Peter
Logged

cliff_marsland
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 840

O Sulla, please save us from fools and villains.


WWW
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2010, 02:32:41 pm »

Wow, I'm having a hard time keeping down my (unusually late) coffee after seeing that page.  I'll refrain from making a Tony Clifton-esque comment about it.

My Servius Sulpicius (COTD)  is destroying the world!

I bought a Denarius at my local coin shop today.  I'm a terrible person!

I'm also listening to the radio on a tube (antique) radio.  I must be Attila the Hun!

I guess I'll really be a horrible person when I continue buying if a ban is put into place.
Logged

cliff_marsland
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 840

O Sulla, please save us from fools and villains.


WWW
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2010, 03:42:08 pm »

There's 1892 faxes according to the site.  Contacting radio and other media would have generated a lot more, but I guess 1892 without a lot of publicity isn't terrible.  I guess now we just have to wait to see what happens.

Mr. Sayles and his organization deserve a lot of gratitude, as well as a big thank you to people from around the world who stood up for freedom.

Even I never thought an innocent hobby like ancient coins would come under attack.  Perhaps they'll come after old time radio shows next.  After all, many were pilfered by radio station personnel in the past or were abandoned by owners.  We need an MOU on that!  An inconvenient fact is that the preservation of American OTR far outstrips any other nation.  Archives have contributed fairly little to the amount of shows.  They largely came through private collectors and clubs.

In fact, I'm working on cleaning up a classic radio show right now.  I also collect coins.  I'm a double-terrible person!

I pointed out in my fax that many of the major reference works or scholarship per ancient numismatics came out of private collections and/or dealers and private collectors.  The government of Italy has hasn't exactly been a hotbed of major ancient numismatic works that I know of.  English language and German works seem to be the top 2 by far in bibliographies, with a decent amount of French works.  Actually, there's a whole heck of a lot of German works.   

There's plenty of room for co-operation between public institutions (such as museums) and private individuals in the realm of collecting and references.  An MOU would only create more antagonism between private individuals and archaeologists/museums as well as private individuals and various regimes, both home and abroad.  I'd rather see co-operation.
Logged

goldenancients
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1012


Danny Jones


WWW
« Reply #85 on: May 07, 2010, 08:02:53 am »

From the ACCG website:

ACCG voices opposition on Italy MOU

          "The ACCG has submitted a formal comment regarding the possible addition of coins to the Memorandum of Understanding with Italy.

          On May 6th and 7th, the Cultural Property Advisory Committee will convene in Washington DC to consider extending the current Memorandum of Understanding with Italy that restricts the importation of certain types of cultural property.  The MOU is a form of bilateral agreement between nations that is authorized by the cultural property implementation act' target='_blank'>Convention on Cultural Property Implementation Act of 1983.  The decision to enter an agreement rests with the U.S. State Department and by law is aided through the deliberation of CPAC.  Theoretically, the State Department would follow the advice of CPAC in all but the most unusual of cases.  An MOU must be reconsidered every five years.  Although many types of artifacts from Italy are currently restricted, coins have been exempted in the past two CPAC deliberations.  There is reason to believe that they may be considered for addition this cycle.
             The public is invited to comment on issues before CPAC in two ways, either by written statement or by oral comment.  The ACCG submitted a written statement on April 20, 2010.  Guild Executive Director Wayne G. Sayles will present oral comments in Washington at the public session on May 6th.  Washington attorney Peter Tompa will represent the numismatic trade at this hearing. The Numismatic Community will also be represented with oral presentations by Mr. Clifford Mishler, ANA president; Mr. Douglas Mudd, curator of the Money Museum; and Mrs. Souzana Steverding, Director of Ancient Coins for Education."



There were a total of 1934 faxes sent through the ACCG website opposing the MOU. The deliberations close today. We should hear something shortly as to the outcome.


Regards,
Danny

Logged

goldenancients
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1012


Danny Jones


WWW
« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2010, 11:35:25 am »

Does anyone know when this agreement would be scheduled to take effect? What is the expiration date of the current agreement?

The MOU was originally entered into between the US and Italy on January 19, 2001. Every five years, the MOU is reconsidered. In 2006, it was extended for another five years with some amendments. It is due to be reconsidered again today, May 7. Basically, according to its own wording which I quote below, the MOU, if agreed upon bilaterally, will take effect immediately.    i.e. today.

Here is the paragraph in the MOU about the  "Inapplicability of Notice and Delayed Effective Date"

"Because the amendment to the Customs Regulations contained in this
document imposing import restrictions on the above-listed cultural
property of Italy is being made in response to a bilateral agreement
entered into in furtherance of the foreign affairs interests of the
United States, pursuant to section 553(a)(1) of the Administrative
Procedure Act, (5 U.S.C. 553(a)(1)), no notice of proposed rulemaking
or public procedure is necessary. For the same reason, a delayed
effective date is not required pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 553(d)(3)."



Regards,
Danny
Logged

goldenancients
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1012


Danny Jones


WWW
« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2010, 11:43:28 am »

For those of you who are interested, here is a summary of the MOU with Italy from the US State Department. Paragraph three lists the categories of objects subject to import restrictions. There are those who are trying to include ancient Roman coins as a part of the restrictions. This is what we are fighting against.

I.  Cultural Property Agreement with the U.S.

On January 19, 2001, the Government of the United States of America and the Government of the Republic of Italy entered into a bilateral agreement*, or Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), imposing import restrictions on pre-Classical, Classical, and Imperial Roman archaeological material from Italy.

On January 19, 2006, the governments of the United States and Italy exchanged diplomatic notes extending and amending the MOU.


II.  Summary of the Basis for the Agreement

The agreement is in response to a request from the Government of Italy made under Article 9 of the 1970 UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property.*
The import restrictions are intended to reduce the incentive for pillage and illicit trafficking of cultural objects.
 
Reports from the Carabinieri Nucleo Tutela del Patrimonio Artistico and in the Italian national and regional press indicate that looting is a current and severe problem, particularly in southern Italy, Sicily, and Etruria. The quantity and nature of Italian archaeological material on the market further show that the archaeological heritage of Italy is being pillaged to meet the demand in the international trade.  The agreement offers both countries an opportunity to engage in a partnership to help protect the cultural heritage of Italy, and to enrich American cultural life through research and educational programs, and loans between Italian and American institutions.


III.  Categories of Objects Subject to Import Restriction

The Designated List, published in the Federal Register by the Department of the Treasury on January 23, 2001, describes types of restricted objects from Italy as ranging in date from approximately the 9th century B.C. to the 4th century A.D.  Categories include stone, metal, and ceramic sculpture; decorated vessels in metal and ceramic; metal jewelry; weapons and armor, and inscribed metal sheets; glass and stone mosaics; and wall painting.

IV.  Import Restrictions

Objects from categories described in the Designated List may enter the U.S. only if they have an export permit issued by Italy, or documentation indicating that they left Italy prior to the effective date of the restriction: January 23, 2001.



Regards,
Danny
Logged

goldenancients
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1012


Danny Jones


WWW
« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2010, 11:59:26 am »

I know many of you are following this keenly (as I am also) and await a response as to whether coins will be added to this extension of the MOU or if the designated list will be kept the same. Here are links to the former MOUs with Italy in PDF format:


2001 MOU in English

http://exchanges.state.gov/heritage/culprop/itfact/pdfs/it2001mou.pdf

2001 MOU in Italian:
http://exchanges.state.gov/heritage/culprop/itfact/pdfs/it2001mouit.pdf

2001 Designated List of Restricted Items:
http://exchanges.state.gov/heritage/culprop/itfact/pdfs/it2001dlfrn.pdf

2006 MOU Extension and Ammendments:
http://exchanges.state.gov/heritage/culprop/itfact/pdfs/it2006mouext.pdf

2006 MOU Extension and Ammendments (Italian):
http://exchanges.state.gov/heritage/culprop/itfact/pdfs/it2006mouextit.pdf


Regards,
Danny
Logged

cliff_marsland
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 840

O Sulla, please save us from fools and villains.


WWW
« Reply #89 on: May 29, 2010, 01:02:45 pm »

They're taking their sweet time about it.  I just did a google search, and didn't find anything about it.  I found some amusing propaganda wanting to say yes.  Whenever I see things like that, the Andy Kaufman in me comes out (I love his "helpful hints")., and it makes me quite giddy that my coin orders put a frown on the face of the individuals who want to take our coins away.  I plan on adding another frown today. 

I wouldn't obey the decree anyway if they sell us out, but it would be nice to know the decision.

Logged

Enodia
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2049


~ For My Star ~


« Reply #90 on: May 29, 2010, 01:08:27 pm »

I wouldn't obey the decree anyway if they sell us out, but it would be nice to know the decision.

right on brother!
Viva la Revolucion'!

defiantly,
~ Peter
Logged

cliff_marsland
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 840

O Sulla, please save us from fools and villains.


WWW
« Reply #91 on: May 29, 2010, 03:15:37 pm »

In peaceful, yet defiant, civil disobedience, we should all go buy something from Forum, or whatever dealer one happens to frequent.  I have my eye on a Nero that I will purchase once my question about availability is answered.

or better yet..antiquities; that'll really get the nattering nabobs in a tizzy.  Forum has a large selection of such.  I never really got into antiquities because I don't have anywhere to properly display them and the good stuff is really expensive.  Some of the decorated bowls are surprisingly affordable, though, as well as some of the Egyptian figurines.
Logged

paul1888
Praetorian
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 85


« Reply #92 on: June 24, 2010, 08:14:24 am »

Has anyone heard any new infomation on this?  Seems to have gotten really quiet.

Paul
Logged
Dino
Procurator Caesaris
Quaestor
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1510


Anyone have change for a hemidrachm?


WWW
« Reply #93 on: June 24, 2010, 12:33:05 pm »

It is quiet.  I'm guessin gthat State has other more serious issues they're dealing with at the moment.
Logged

Enodia
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2049


~ For My Star ~


« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2010, 03:34:25 pm »

a new front!
i guess it was inevitable really, but i just recieved this email from CNG...

Quote
We've recently learned that the government of Greece has asked the United States to implement new import restrictions on Greek cultural property. We're asking for your help to oppose any new restrictions on the trade of coins.
 
Although we don't know exactly which objects are specified in the confidential request, we have reason to believe coins of Greek origin are included. In the past, coins from Greece have not been subject to restrictions of this type. If this new request is granted, the impact on both collectors and dealers could be substantial. We're asking you to help by making your thoughts known to the Cultural Property Advisory Committee (CPAC), which will soon evaluate the Greek request. Please see our instructions below to send CPAC your comments.
 
Why should you oppose these import restrictions? Industry attorney Peter Tompa has suggested that collectors consider the following points:
US law requires that restrictions only be applied on artifacts "first discovered in Greece." But hoard evidence demonstrates that Greek coins circulated extensively outside the confines of the modern Greek nation state.
US law requires restrictions only be placed on artifacts of "cultural significance." But coins -- which exist in many multiples-- do not meet that particular criteria.
US law requires that less drastic remedies be tried before import restrictions. But Greece has not tried systems akin the the UK Treasure Act before seeking restrictions.
US law requires that restrictions be consistent with the interests of the international community in cultural exchanges. But restrictions will diminish the ability of American collectors to appreciate Greek culture and could greatly limit people to people contacts with other collectors in Europe.
Restrictions are unfair and discriminatory to Americans. Collectors in the EU--including Greece-- have no similar limitations on their ability to import ancient coins.

To find out more about Greece's request, you may visit the Cultural Heritage Center site maintained by the US Department of State. In addition, Peter Tompa maintains a blog in which he discusses his opinions of the Greek request.
 
Please send your comments to the Cultural Property Advisory Committee through the following US government Web site before September 22:
 
Submit a comment now

Thank you for your help in this matter.
The Staff at CNG, Inc.

i'm already late for work, but i wanted this posted asap.

~ Peter
Logged

commodus
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Deceased Member
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3326



« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2010, 05:37:37 pm »

Yes, it is happening again. This time with Greece. I was about to post the very same email but Peter beat me to it. The first I learned of this was today from this CNG emailing.
Logged

Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
cliff_marsland
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 840

O Sulla, please save us from fools and villains.


WWW
« Reply #96 on: August 28, 2010, 12:16:19 am »

Oh boy; I just saw this.  I don't really collect that much Greek stuff, but it sure makes me want to buy a Greek coin!  Don't these clowns have anything better to do?  Such as maybe not imploding as a country?

Danggumit, my mp3 player died this week and I ordered a new one. An owl, even though I'm not really into those,  would have been a perfect sign of defiance, but I don't wish to dip further into savings at the moment. A New Style Tet would be appropriate though.  Kind of a double insult, since Athens was under the Roman thumb at the time, and the fact that the New Style ones are awesome!

On second thought, I'd rather have a Seleucid Tet. The mainland's not been very relevant since 338 B.C.

Do they claim Hellenistic things as well?  If they're going to play that game, wouldn't the country of Macedonia have the better claim on the great majority of Greek things outside of Achaea?  Or even various Muslim countries?  Oh well, we're not supposed to think about logic; we're supposed to shut up and do the feel good thing.  We're supposed to do like Mr. Van Driessen from Beavis and Butt-head, strum a guitar and sing 'climb a mountain." Well, sorry, I'm not a van Driessen.  What about all the things plundered from Greece by the Romans?  Oops, I'm thinking again..not supposed to do that.

I've long reached the point where I'm sick of it, and I am blatantly hostile towards people/institutions that want to take our coins away   We're not hurting anything  Leave us alone. Bullies need to be stood up to.

I think now would be a good time to buy some Tets as a show of solidarity.  Forum has many nice ones.  Better yet, buy the owls and mainland issues that will really drive the nabobs nuts.

Ah, if only Pompey Magnus were in our State Dept., "Little man..."  He was quoting to an Athenian too  How very ironic.   Oh well, wishful thinking.

I have a feeling that nothing will happen in the end, but I'll support just about any cause for collectors.

 I think Italy and Greece will be snubbed off for the time-being, but I will be very concerned if Egypt, Syria, Persia, Jordan etc. suddenly want to get into the action. 








Logged

Roy P
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #97 on: August 28, 2010, 07:53:05 am »

It seems like that which was originally created for the possession of the masses is now a top state priority for repatriation. Hello.... We are not talking about pieces of the Forum or the Parthanon. These are not DaVinci paintings or pieces of regal armor. These are coins which were made to be held and owned by PEOPLE not institutions or state warehouses. These are the only pieces of history most of us can own, trade and collect.
Please, Italy and Greece, GET A CLUE!!! Undecided Undecided Undecided
Logged
Robert_Brenchley
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7224

Honi soit qui mal y pense.


WWW
« Reply #98 on: August 28, 2010, 12:34:24 pm »

We may be shooting ourselves in the foot by calling all Hellenistic coins 'Greek'.
Logged

Robert Brenchley

My gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
rover1.3
Tribunus Plebis 2012 / Procurator Monetae
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1589



« Reply #99 on: August 28, 2010, 02:42:21 pm »

We may be shooting ourselves in the foot by calling all Hellenistic coins 'Greek'.

What's the proper way to call them in your opinion? "Judaean" maybe?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Time to Speak Out « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 5.201 seconds with 71 queries.