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Author Topic: Time to Speak Out  (Read 79770 times)

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Offline rover1.3

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #175 on: September 23, 2010, 03:04:08 pm »
No my friend, I am against this movement from Greece.
But I can't sit and listen all these ironies! Don't you agree that he uses some really insulting language in his posts? See his previous posts and you will see what I mean.

Offline areich

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #176 on: September 23, 2010, 03:15:26 pm »
I certainly see no reson to insult the Greek people because of this proposed MOU.
Andreas Reich

Offline rover1.3

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #177 on: September 23, 2010, 03:29:19 pm »
Ok, Greece has financial problems, we all know it.
But posting like "ha ha the coin is mine now, Greeks can't have it back cause they don't have the money" is extremely insulting IMO. I was patiently waiting for someone to say something and explain to cliff that he uses some insulting language, but I saw that no one said something.


If you really like Greek coins, want to study the ancient Greek culture and all these, don't you think you should at least express your self more carefully about Greece and Greeks?
In case you don't like Greek coins and you don't have a serious interest on them (as you have said many times on this thread), then why you
dont simply ignore all this instead of insulting Greek people?

I bet all members here are against this MOU, but only you acted this way.

"I would hide or destroy the items before it reached that point, anyway. I don't have any owls at the moment (I never had much interest in them), but I'll have to buy one to enrage the nabobs.   The $150 or so for a  mediocre later one would be well worth the cost."

These are YOUR words. Anyone here believe these are not insulting? I think that sensible people in the U.S trying to beat this MOU
by providing real argument, should feel VERY sad reading what you write here. Not to mention that many people on the other side could use all these you are writing for their own purposes.
I don't think you have to feel that you are under a new "alcohol prohibition". Please calm down.

P.S In case you are interesting, it is impossible to be able to study the ancient Greek language using Google translators. Buy some books instead.
The fact that you are not able to read and speak even some basic Greeks is a big prove that you have no relationship, nothing common with Greece, Greek coins and Greek
culture in general.

These are "all Greek" to you.
I should try and learn some of your language's basics before start claiming your country's coins.

 
And last,but not least,your words again.
 I have personally insulted (and I mean insulted!)  people as high as senators on important committees

Ο Νοων Νοειτω, that is my answer... (You can seek for this to your Google translator, i hope this time you to be lucky).

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #178 on: September 23, 2010, 03:44:24 pm »
On Moneta-L, from John Hooker:

I am copying this response to the list to show that even AIA members do
not all toe the party line:

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#documentDetail?R=0900006480b5595b

"I am a Life Member of the Archaeological Institute of America and also
a collector and student of ancient coinage. Although I understand the
concerns for protecting the integrity of archaeological sites within the
borders of Greece, I urge the Department of State to reject the proposed
MOU in its present form.  According to the governing statute,
restrictions can be applied only to artifacts "first discovered in
Greece." But there is no basis for presuming that an ancient Greek coin
in today's collectors market was "first discovered in Greece." Since
ancient times, Greek coins have circulated (and been buried) far outside
the borders of the modern Greek state- to nearly every part of Europe
and as far East as India. Archaeologists can attest that most ancient
Greek coins now extant were discovered outside of modern Greece. The
governing statute also imposes these restrictions only on artifacts of
"cultural significance." But that criterion does not well fit the case
of coins- which were mechanically mass-manufactured and have for
centuries been distributed virtually everywhere in the modern world. 
The governing statute contemplates that less drastic remedies be tried
before the imposition of import restrictions; a successful example is
the UK Treasure Act and Portable Antiquities Scheme. But Greece has not
yet tried any such approach before seeking these restrictions. The
governing statute requires that restrictions be consistent with the
interests of the international community in cultural exchanges. But
restrictions will diminish the ability of American collectors to study
these products of Greek culture. Scholars know that the greatest
advances in the study of Greek numismatics (and indeed, ancient Greek
history) have come from the work of institutions and private scholars
outside of modern Greece. The proposed restrictions are perverse,
unfair and discriminatory to Americans. Collectors in the EU--including
Greece--have no similar limitations on their ability to import ancient
coins. The proposed restrictions would harm business relations between
US and EU small businesses, particularly those in Germany and the U.K."

Well done, and a brave response!

Cheers,

John
Curtis Clay

Offline Will Hooton

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #179 on: September 25, 2010, 05:52:52 am »
It seems that Bavaria has declared it's opposition to the inclusion of numismatic objects in the Memorandum of Understanding proposed by Greece to the United States. Here follows a link to the letter sent to the State Department by the Bavarian Minister of Economic Affairs, Infrastructure, Transport and Technology.

CLICK FOR PDF.



To paraphrase JFK;

Ich bin ein Münchner!

( I am not aware that "ein Münchner" is a jam doughnut!)

Offline cliff_marsland

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #180 on: September 25, 2010, 12:22:01 pm »
Bless you Bavaria!

Offline Xenophon

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #181 on: September 25, 2010, 12:46:37 pm »
Indeed, hats off to the Germans !

Offline Danny S. Jones

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #182 on: September 26, 2010, 03:35:21 am »
It seems that Bavaria has declared it's opposition to the inclusion of numismatic objects in the Memorandum of Understanding proposed by Greece to the United States. Here follows a link to the letter sent to the State Department by the Bavarian Minister of Economic Affairs, Infrastructure, Transport and Technology.

CLICK FOR PDF.

Proof that these restrictions will negatively impact trade, private business, and economies worldwide. Hopefully the combined voices of collectors, academics, interest groups, dealers and even other governments will be loud enough to make an impact on the final decision of the MOU.

Danny

Offline Roy P

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #183 on: September 26, 2010, 02:27:17 pm »
  It is good to see that some people are aware of the impact on small business trade this foolishness will have. There are many fine German auction houses that would be severely impacted as well as small dealers. It would be great to see the same sort of response from Italians and Greeks who can visualize the reprocussions on small business owners who engage in trade in collector coins in their countries. -Roy

Offline Danny S. Jones

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #184 on: September 28, 2010, 09:08:04 am »
This is a summary of the public submissions to the Greece-USA Memorandum of Understanding, writtten by John Hooker, who posted it on Moneta-L and requested that it be forwarded.

"The on-line public submission process has closed and the counter recorded 1347 entries. After tallying all of these, I came up with the following results:

71.2% were opposing the MOU, completely, or provisionally. Their main provision, overwhelmingly, cited coins, and coins were also mentioned by the vast majority of those rejected the MOU outright.

28.8% were supporting the MOU, unprovisionally. I saw very few of these that even mentioned coins.

These results must be taken as an approximation for the following reasons: with such a repetitive task, errors are bound to occur -- especially at moments of distraction. I was aware of this fact as I proceeded, and did my best to avoid them. I am sure that they will be well below 1%. If I was unsure if I had recorded one that supported the MOU, I assumed that I had not and marked it down. I was counting the supporting votes as it was quicker.

There were a number of repeated entries -- apparently, some people were unsure if their submission had got through and had sent it again. This happened mostly with attachments. I did not tally these, thinking that such errors could happen on either side and while the total numbers would be affected thus, the percentages would be far less so. Subsequent observation showed that the pro MOU side were more likely to send attachments, so again, their percentage might even be lower than what I give here.

There were a few submissions in a format that my computer could not recognize. They might be an incomplete stage of conversions such as PDF and HTML. It seemed most of these came from submitters on the pro MOU side, so I gave them to that side, save for the times when I saw that the attachment was from someone I knew to be on the side not supporting the MOU.

Being on the side that does not support the MOU, I gave as much credit to the other side as was feasible. My best guess is that an in-depth analysis would give us a slightly higher percentage, perhaps around 72-73% -- but the difference is insignificant and this is only a guess.

The difficulty, with these submissions, is that they were not for a single issue. The majority of those who supported the MOU seemed unaware that there was such an issue over the inclusion of coins. The bulk of their responses can be defined thus:

Greece is wonderful -- looting is bad -- sign the MOU. I am not trying to disparage, here, merely abstract. Most of their responses were well written, evocative, and passionate. What they did not include, virtually to a person -- was any consideration of a valid opposing view. They seemed unaware of the problems of conflicting infrastructures and the potential loss of rights set forth in various constitutions. Their responses were largely "black box" thinking -- the MOU was a magic pill
that would make all of the bad go away. If they had ideas that differed from what I give here, they kept them to themselves. A lesser number of them, gave personal accounts of seeing the effects of looting, or said something to the effect that they would like to continue doing archaeological work in Greece.

The numismatists side, overwhelmingly, gave many reasons for their alarm and this went far beyond numismatic concerns (of which there were several types). The responses also addressed discrimination against Americans that was not also applied to the EU as constitutions were in place forbidding such in some places. This was echoed by Martin Zeil, the Bavarian Minister of Economic Affairs, Infrastructure, Transport and Technology, who sternly said:

"If the import of certain coins into the United States required an export licence granted by authorities of the export country in future, this requirement could not be fulfilled by German retailers. Legal trade would then hardly be possible between Germany and the United States."
http://tinyurl.com/2bl97hr

Martin Zeil also addressed the infrastructure aspect citing numbers of Germans involved in the trade. On the numismatists side, such infrastructure numbers were also given by Heritage Auction Galleries: http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#documentDetail?R=0900006480b54fb9

Responses on both sides made some use of templates or pasted their points of contention from external sources, mostly including personal content. There were respectful comments and belligerent comments -- I saw no limits to the range of emotions or styles. There were a few who didn't seem to know what they were doing there (I gave them to the pro MOU side). One man introduced himself and told us how many kids he had.That was it! I suppose he had been told "If you want to cast your vote, go here." He did, and thought that by doing so he had voted.

I could see no sharp divisions among numismatists from their responses -- these went from brief to very detailed, and the numismatists from beginners to published authorities without the slightest trace of class distinctions. Very few numismatists objected to the MOU without listing a couple of reasons and some addressed more than six.

I am pleased that the submission process was made so transparent, but I wonder why. From the responses to the Italian MOU, I cannot imagine that the State Department was expecting a much different response than the one it got. They are intelligent people. Occam's razor would demand that they were looking for an expedient solution that would be seen to be democratic and that they would pass some sort of MOU that would exclude restrictions on coins. By doing so, they could point to the results to support their decision.

But perhaps Occam's razor cannot be employed for DOS -- only time will tell.

Cheers,

John"


Offline El Reye

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #185 on: November 14, 2010, 02:36:36 pm »
Has anyone heard any updates ??
“We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.”
Aesop   Greek slave & fable author (620 BC - 560 BC)

Offline Roy P

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #186 on: December 21, 2010, 10:35:28 am »
It has been about a month and a half since there has been any additional input on the Italian MOU. The end of the year is here, and the old MOU is about to require replacement.  A couple days into the year, the New York International is taking place, requiring people to pass through Customs. This can have a huge impact on the show. Is there any new word at this point? Time is drawing near.

Offline Minos

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #187 on: January 19, 2011, 11:08:09 am »
An update from Alfredo De La Fe, through Moneta-L.

Federal Register /Vol. 76, No. 12 /Wednesday, January 19, 2011 /Rules and Regulations

"Extension of Import Restrictions
Imposed on Archaeological Material
Originating in Italy and Representing
the Pre-Classical, Classical, and
Imperial Roman Periods.

...

F. Coins of Italian Types—A type
catalogue of listed currency and coins
can be found in N.K. Rutter et al. (eds.),
Historia Numorum: Italy (London,
2001). Others appear in G.F. Hill Coins
of Ancient Sicily (Westminster, 1903).
1. Lumps of bronze (Aes Rude)—
Irregular lumps of bronze used as an
early medium of exchange in Italy from
the 9th century B.C.
2. Bronze bars (Ramo Secco and Aes
Signatum)—Cast bronze bars (whole or
cut) used as a media of exchange in
central Italy and Etruria from the 5th
century B.C.
3. Cast coins (Aes Grave)—Cast
bronze coins of Rome, Etruscan, and
Italian cities from the 4th century B.C.
4. Struck coins—Struck coins of the
Roman Republic and Etruscan cities
produced in gold, silver, and bronze
from the 3rd century B.C. to c. 211 B.C.,
including the ‘‘Romano-Campanian’’
coinage.
5. Struck colonial coinage—Struck
bronze coins of Roman republican and
early imperial colonies and municipia
in Italy, Sicily, and Sardinia from the
3rd century B.C. to c. A.D. 37.
6. Coins of the Greek cities—Coins of
the Greek cities in the southern Italian
peninsula and in Sicily (Magna
Graecia), cast or struck in gold, silver,
and bronze, from the late 6th century
B.C. to c. 200 B.C."

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2011/pdf/2011-882.pdf

 :-[

Offline cliff_marsland

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #188 on: January 19, 2011, 12:19:26 pm »
I fully expected these vultures to sell us out.  Fortunately it doesn't seem to encompass everything.  They weren't segments that I really collected, but it is certainly an incentive to start, with a friendly one-finger salute to the unaccountable slob/s that decided this.

It is unfathomable that any American would support this, and it sets a bad precedent.  Looks like Jean Shepherd was correct in his low opinion of people in general, "It's a slob world," as he said many times on his famous WOR show.

I wonder how much we'll be sold out when the Greek decision comes out?

Can anyone say black market?  These dipsticks will never learn from history (Prohibition, etc. etc.)  It's not going to stop "illegal" digging.

Offline Danny S. Jones

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #189 on: January 19, 2011, 01:11:36 pm »
Will this be enforced for exports from Italy only? How will this affect imports from other countries? Will a coin struck at a Rome mint sold in Britain or Germany and sent to the US be confiscated as Italian cultural heritage?

How about the coins that one has already purchased, traveling across borders? If one enters the US with ancient coins on their person that were minted in ancient Roman territory that is now controlled by modern Italy, will they be confiscated? Many coins that would fall under the above description are sold from US dealers. Will exports be monitored as well?

Definitely another blow to the ancient coin collecting community specifically and individual property rights of Americans in general.





 

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #190 on: January 19, 2011, 01:32:14 pm »
Will this be enforced for exports from Italy only? How will this affect imports from other countries? Will a coin struck at a Rome mint sold in Britain or Germany and sent to the US be confiscated as Italian cultural heritage?

How about the coins that one has already purchased, traveling across borders? If one enters the US with ancient coins on their person that were minted in ancient Roman territory that is now controlled by modern Italy, will they be confiscated? Many coins that would fall under the above description are sold from US dealers. Will exports be monitored as well?

Definitely another blow to the ancient coin collecting community specifically and individual property rights of Americans in general.
 

It doesn't include the Denarius coinage of the Roman Republic and associated bronzes. Nor Roman Imperial. Whew!

The defined coins are very specific, covering only Magna Graecia coinages and those Roman coinages - Didrachms and Aes Grave - struck in Italy before Rome became a world power (at the 2nd Punic War), plus local (city-issued) Italian bronze coinages. One might reasonably expect 90% - 100% of such coins to have been found in Italy. I understand it applies regardless whether the coins are imported from Italy or any other country, the logic being that coins covered by this narrow definition were almost certainly found on Italian soil at some point.

In many respects a reasonable compromise. Although the value of my large collection of Aes Grave has no doubt plummeted due to being unable to sell them in USA any longer.

Apart from the value issue, I don't care much about the issue as I live inside EU, indeed in a source country (many EU countries are source countries for Roman coins) where possession and trading in ancient coins is absolutely no problem at all. US collectors might however wish to emigrate.

Offline benito

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #191 on: January 19, 2011, 01:51:16 pm »
Will this be enforced for exports from Italy only? How will this affect imports from other countries? Will a coin struck at a Rome mint sold in Britain or Germany and sent to the US be confiscated as Italian cultural heritage?

How about the coins that one has already purchased, traveling across borders? If one enters the US with ancient coins on their person that were minted in ancient Roman territory that is now controlled by modern Italy, will they be confiscated? Many coins that would fall under the above description are sold from US dealers. Will exports be monitored as well?

Definitely another blow to the ancient coin collecting community specifically and individual property rights of Americans in general.
 

It doesn't include the Denarius coinage of the Roman Republic and associated bronzes. Nor Roman Imperial. Whew!

The defined coins are very specific, covering only Magna Graecia coinages and those Roman coinages - Didrachms and Aes Grave - struck in Italy before Rome became a world power (at the 2nd Punic War), plus local (city-issued) Italian bronze coinages. One might reasonably expect 90% - 100% of such coins to have been found in Italy. I understand it applies regardless whether the coins are imported from Italy or any other country, the logic being that coins covered by this narrow definition were almost certainly found on Italian soil at some point.

In many respects a reasonable compromise. Although the value of my large collection of Aes Grave has no doubt plummeted due to being unable to sell them in USA any longer.

Apart from the value issue, I don't care much about the issue as I live inside EU, indeed in a source country (many EU countries are source countries for Roman coins) where possession and trading in ancient coins is absolutely no problem at all. US collectors might however wish to emigrate.

I think you should have no problems with your AEs grave. You have proof that they left Italy before the 19th January. I own a few "Romano-Campanian’’
with bill of sale ,and the Auction catalogues from which I bought them.No problems for me either.

Offline Enodia

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #192 on: January 19, 2011, 03:34:37 pm »
The defined coins are very specific, covering only Magna Graecia coinages and those Roman coinages - Didrachms and Aes Grave - struck in Italy before Rome became a world power (at the 2nd Punic War), plus local (city-issued) Italian bronze coinages.

yeah, great.
well then i'm screwed! my entire numismatic focus is on the pre-Roman coinage of southern Italy.
what a bunch of myopic govern-o-bots, fooling themselves into thinking they've done some great deed to protect Italy's 'cultural heritage', when they can't even enforce the rules which already exist. pathetic!

i will now be boycotting spaghetti, loafers, bad comedy, and anything else which might originate in Italy. let's see how this decision effects their already thriving economy!

~ Peter

Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #193 on: January 19, 2011, 04:25:36 pm »
yeah, great.
well then i'm screwed! my entire numismatic focus is on the pre-Roman coinage of southern Italy.
what a bunch of myopic govern-o-bots, fooling themselves into thinking they've done some great deed to protect Italy's 'cultural heritage', when they can't even enforce the rules which already exist. pathetic!

i will now be boycotting spaghetti, loafers, bad comedy, and anything else which might originate in Italy. let's see how this decision effects their already thriving economy!

~ Peter

Pizza too.

"Screwed" assumes you wish to add more coins in this area. If you are in the USA and have thoughts of changing numismatic direction then you are sitting on irreplaceable valuable treasure.

Offline Enodia

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #194 on: January 19, 2011, 05:00:27 pm »
"Screwed" assumes you wish to add more coins in this area. If you are in the USA and have thoughts of changing numismatic direction then you are sitting on irreplaceable valuable treasure.

it is (was?) absolutely my intention to add to my collection in this area>:(
why is it always the short-sighted dummies (on either side of the pond) who get to make all the decisions? (rhetorical question)

Offline casata137ec

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #195 on: January 19, 2011, 05:27:54 pm »
Gahhhh...that gets me too (sicilian coinage)! Well actually, I guess 5th and 4th century BCE  sicilian coinage is still ok?  Is everyone selling these coins now suppose to take them off of their sites/shelves and send them back to Italy?

Chris

PS Looks like my paltry collection of bronzes just spiked in price! lol
C.
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Offline El Reye

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #196 on: January 19, 2011, 06:29:16 pm »
Screwed again by this government, and you know this is only the first step.

Cameron
“We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.”
Aesop   Greek slave & fable author (620 BC - 560 BC)

Offline mwilson603

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #197 on: January 22, 2011, 09:11:20 pm »
Obviously I am aware that the MOU is to do with restricting further trade and not really the return of previously obtained objects, however if Italy and Greece are so keen on insisting on cultural patrimony, can I safely assume these countries will start to send back the wealth of other countries treasures that currently reside in museums within those 2 countries?
 
For example, the Turin museum is extremely proud of "one of the best collections of Egyptian artefacts to be found outside of Cairo. Younger visitors will no doubt enjoy the reconstructed burial chambers, as well the myriad of mummies that are always the source of a macabre fascination."  Surely in a case of leading by example, the Italian government will ensure that these culturally significant exhibits are instantly returned to Egypt to strengthen their own point, won't they? (rhetorical question, no need to respond)

regards
Mark

Offline commodus

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #198 on: January 22, 2011, 09:28:37 pm »
I doubt we in the US need to worry much about any internal enforcement of the MOU when it comes to trading coins that are already here.
Particularly not if there is proof they entered the US before the MOU. ;) All those COAs may come in handy after all!
The authorities have bigger things to worry their little heads over than whether any of these materials get sold at a coin show, a shop, or even over the internet.
I'm not too worried.
My feelings about the PRINCIPLE of the thing, however, is another matter.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline vk

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Re: Time to Speak Out
« Reply #199 on: January 23, 2011, 12:41:04 am »
I talked to a couple of dealers, and they said that the policy only applied to new imports.   Coin sales have been a legal business for many years.  I don't believe there would be a basis for asking owners to return coins.  However, I'm certainly going to keep all my records in case I want to sell any of my collection in the future to show that the coins pre-date the restrictions.

My real issue is that it is illegal for Italy as part of the EU to restrict sales of these coins to other countries within the EU.  It makes no logical sense for Italy to ask for import restrictions only to the US.

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity