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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: Dr. Danny S. Jones)  |  Topic: Time to Speak Out 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Time to Speak Out  (Read 63798 times)
ancientone
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« Reply #150 on: September 20, 2010, 05:35:48 am »

Success! Your Comment Has Been Submitted
Comment Tracking Number: 80b53231
Thank you for submitting a comment on the following NOTICES

Document ID: DOS-2010-0339-0001: Receipt of Cultural Property Request from the Government of the Hellenic Republic
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cliff_marsland
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« Reply #151 on: September 21, 2010, 12:26:08 am »

I found the page to be kind of weird and vaguely dystopian.  My question is: are comments viewable?  I wasn't able to find any.  I don't mind if someone sees my comment if I make one.  It probably just goes to Cass Sunstein's round file.  I would have thought the pertinent page would have been the State Dept. page?  This isn't a regulation, it's a treaty.

By the way, as part of my birthday, I received a Ptolemaic bronze.  Not exactly "Greek", really Hellenistic or Macedonian, but Greece would probably claim it.  Haha, I have it and Greece doesn't!  In having this one coin, I probably have more money than they!

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commodus
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« Reply #152 on: September 21, 2010, 12:59:12 am »

I found the page to be kind of weird and vaguely dystopian.  My question is: are comments viewable?  I wasn't able to find any.  I don't mind if someone sees my comment if I make one.  It probably just goes to Cass Sunstein's round file.  I would have thought the pertinent page would have been the State Dept. page?  This isn't a regulation, it's a treaty.

You are largely echoing my thoughts.
"Success!" it says, but success at what? At posting comments that may not be read? At posting them to a site that does not appear to be associated with the department making the decision?
Further, as with our Italian MOU comments, I wonder if the required personal info they collect might not be used to create a database of collectors should ownership become illegal at some future date.
I don't trust those involved, not at all. However, I gave the government the benefit of the doubt, set aside my paranoia, and voiced my opposition.
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #153 on: September 21, 2010, 01:14:18 am »

By the way, as part of my birthday, I received a Ptolemaic bronze.  Not exactly "Greek", really Hellenistic or Macedonian, but Greece would probably claim it.  Haha, I have it and Greece doesn't!  In having this one coin, I probably have more money than they!

comments like this really do nothing to further our case. you should aim your rage at the petty bean counters who create these short-sided regulations and then move on to the next knee-jerk cause, not at Greece itself. the problem they are seeking to correct is a real one, only their methods are misguided, imo.

Quote from: commodus
I wonder if the required personal info they collect might not be used to create a database of collectors should ownership become illegal at some future date.
I don't trust those involved, not at all.


unfortunately i echo your thoughts here. i hope my paranoia is unfounded, but again, it's the bean counters' game and they make the rules.
i have even contemplated removing my gallery should this regulation go into effect.  Angry

~ Peter
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Dr. Danny S. Jones
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« Reply #154 on: September 21, 2010, 01:44:40 am »

My question is: are comments viewable?  I wasn't able to find any. 

I can't find them either. Apparently the comments are public, and viewable, as others here and on the MONETA-L list have cited them, but where, I don't know. I certainly can't find it on the comment website. Maybe someone with the link to viewing the comments could enlighten the rest of us.
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rover1.3
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« Reply #155 on: September 21, 2010, 01:50:27 am »


By the way, as part of my birthday, I received a Ptolemaic bronze.  Not exactly "Greek", really Hellenistic or Macedonian, but Greece would probably claim it.  Haha, I have it and Greece doesn't!  In having this one coin, I probably have more money than they!


If you and others like you just sign this form instead of saying all these childish ironies you insist on saying,you will help the real dialogue between members.Ancient Greece also teach you-among others- the dialogue,but i sadly see you haven't learn a lot...
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areich
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« Reply #156 on: September 21, 2010, 01:59:15 am »

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#docketDetail?R=DOS-2010-0339

simply check 'public submissions', those are the comments on the issue.
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Dr. Danny S. Jones
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« Reply #157 on: September 21, 2010, 02:56:16 am »

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#docketDetail?R=DOS-2010-0339

simply check 'public submissions', those are the comments on the issue.

Thank you, Andreas, for pointing that out. Interestingly, my comment which was made last week was not in the list. I reposted my comments and will wait to see if this one is added to the list. I did receive the "Success" dialog the first time around, and assumed it went through.  I kept my comment tracking number this time. It would behoove you all to check and see if your comments were actually submitted or not.

Danny
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cliff_marsland
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« Reply #158 on: September 21, 2010, 03:01:55 am »

Ah, ok.  The public submissions box was unchecked.  Simply checking it brought up the submissions.  You'll have to forgive me, as I'm not exactly a regular on regulations.gov.  Anyway, thanks - I see the submissions now.  The most recent ones seem to be friendly to our side.  I don't want to check out the Pierre Lavals right now, as I don't want to go to bed angry.

Cool, thanks!  Mystery solved!  I was wondering why everyone was sharing the submission number.  

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areich
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« Reply #159 on: September 21, 2010, 03:06:00 am »

Somewhere (maybe in the confirmation message?) I read that it might take several weeks for comments to be displayed.
Obviously they'd filter out spam and obscenities, hopefully not more. Looking at the comments they seem to approve them in batches.
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Will Hooton
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« Reply #160 on: September 21, 2010, 03:28:35 am »

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#docketDetail?R=DOS-2010-0339

simply check 'public submissions', those are the comments on the issue.

 Interestingly, my comment which was made last week was not in the list. I reposted my comments and will wait to see if this one is added to the list. I did receive the "Success" dialog the first time around, and assumed it went through.  I kept my comment tracking number this time. It would behoove you all to check and see if your comments were actually submitted or not.

Danny

Danny, your comment is there. You must have missed it.
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Will Hooton
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« Reply #161 on: September 21, 2010, 03:36:11 am »

Before I submit my comment, I would like to know something since I am a bit slow on the uptake.

1) Do we actually know for a fact the Hellenic Republic IS actually including coins as part of the of the Memorandum of Understanding with the United States of America and if so would anybody kindly point out to me where it says so in black and white.

2) What will the influence of comments be on the outcome of the Memorandum of Understanding between the Hellenic Republic and the United States of America, if any?

Thanks.
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areich
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« Reply #162 on: September 21, 2010, 03:38:40 am »

1) What is in the request is confidential. It says so somewhere.

2) Who knows? It can't hurt. I don't truly think they'll use these comments as a database of people to watch.
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Dr. Danny S. Jones
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« Reply #163 on: September 21, 2010, 04:10:26 am »

Danny, your comment is there. You must have missed it.

Thanks Will. I see it now. I guess I've overlooked a lot of things. It seems that several people have posted twice, so I'm not alone.
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areich
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« Reply #164 on: September 21, 2010, 04:39:16 am »

Those are mostly attached word files, this generates two entries.
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Xenophon
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« Reply #165 on: September 22, 2010, 06:57:49 am »

David Sear's contribution (0652) is very erudite and to the point.
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commodus
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« Reply #166 on: September 22, 2010, 09:30:55 am »

Thank you Andreas. I can now word my comment more appropriately.

I don't truly think they'll use these comments as a database of people to watch.


With a Democrat government you just never know!  Kiss

It's actually not them that worry me, but the other ones. Lips Sealed
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #167 on: September 22, 2010, 10:29:38 am »

I guess we'll have to sit and await the decision of some faceless, unaccountable, bureaucrat now.  Isn't that great?  We'll probably have to wait forever, based upon the other one.

Needless to say, if the decision goes against us, I shall happily disobey the ruling.


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Roy P
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« Reply #168 on: September 22, 2010, 03:12:15 pm »

I think at this point, we have to wonder, are there any coin collectors on either side of the negotiations? At some point there HAS to be someone involved in this whole process that could lend common sense to the discussion. Let's hope! Undecided
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« Reply #169 on: September 22, 2010, 03:45:11 pm »

Regrettably- probably not.  I suspect the bureaucratic view will be "will the agreement cost more money?" and "will it 'help' the diplomatic relationship with Greece?" as the top considerations followed by media reaction. The personal views of what they would see as a small group of collectors  and dealers would be well down the list.

Are such regulations reviewable by Congress or one of its committees? If so perhaps leaning on your elected representatives might help.
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cliff_marsland
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« Reply #170 on: September 22, 2010, 10:07:08 pm »

I had wondered something similar.  After all, this is a treaty and not a regulation.  It should at least be the U.S. Ambassador's domain or better yet, a treaty to be ratified by the Senate.

I don't see how it could save them any money; quite the opposite.  Enforcement would be difficult and extremely costly.  One would have to hire experts to distinguish between various coins.  Furthermore, how would one determine an Athenian owl from a Phoenician/Egyptian imitation?

I won't support anything that oppresses me, so they'd have to shoot me (and finish me off)  to pry even my crummiest owl away. I would hide or destroy the items before it reached that point, anyway. I don't have any owls at the moment (I never had much interest in them), but I'll have to buy one to enrage the nabobs.   The $150 or so for a  mediocre later one would be well worth the cost.

I'm not a t-shirt wearer, but a burgeoning cottage industry would be to come up with defiant t-shirts.  A good limerick usually enrages the opposition.
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rover1.3
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« Reply #171 on: September 23, 2010, 04:10:14 am »

«Έξεστι Κλαζομενίοις Ασχημονείν»
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« Reply #172 on: September 23, 2010, 11:39:04 am »

I'm sure it's an insult, but unfortunately Google translation won't translate it.  Same to you, I'm sure!

I have personally insulted (and I mean insulted!)  people as high as senators on important committees; the very highest that would write back, so insulting you would be quite a comedown.   Besides, I've never had cause or the desire to personally insult a Forum member, so I'd rather keep it that way, if possible.  Insulting important people is fun, but flaming a stranger on an internet forum is rather inane and would be erased, anyway.  

This also goes to prove one of my points; such MOUs can only serve to create emnity between various countries.  It would also increase the black market exponentially, ala Prohibition.  I drink maybe 3 beers a year, but I would have been one of the first to run out to a speakeasy.

We'll just have to sit tight and see what happens. Coins might not even be on the MOU.

All I want is to have the freedom to buy a coin, take care of it, and enjoy it.  That's not much to ask for.


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rover1.3
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« Reply #173 on: September 23, 2010, 11:59:18 am »

If you want to understand the meaning, ask some of your compatriots. I am sure that many of them know the meaning and what's behind.
Fortunately, the majority of them are more mindful, kind an sensible than you.
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« Reply #174 on: September 23, 2010, 12:54:39 pm »

If you and others like you just sign this form instead of saying all these childish ironies you insist on saying,you will help the real dialogue between members.Ancient Greece also teach you-among others- the dialogue,but i sadly see you haven't learn a lot...
If you want to understand the meaning,ask some of your compatriots.I am sure that plenty of them know the meaning and what's behind.
Fortunately,the majority of them are more mindful,kind an sensible than you.

First you try and preach to the forum about learning from Ancient Greece with regards to dialogue, and then you insult another member in a clear contradiction of the dialogue message you "tried" to put across.

I find it interesting that you are have twice reacted to, and subsequently insulted, a member of the forum who has expressed strong views about breaking the MOU if it is ever agreed.  That makes me think that you are for stopping the trade of Greek coinage.  If that is the case, and you are of course entitled to your view, can I remind you that view may cost the owner of this amazing forum a significant amount of his business. 
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