Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Please look at the RECENT ADDITIONS and PRICE REDUCTIONS at the top and bottom of the page. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES! Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Point your mouse to a coin in RECENT ADDITIONS or PRICE REDUCTIONS on this page to see the the price. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES!


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Time to Speak Out 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Time to Speak Out  (Read 57208 times)
Enodia
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2059


~ For My Star ~


« Reply #100 on: August 28, 2010, 02:54:49 pm »

i think Robert is using the term to denote the post-Alexander 'Greek' world. in this way there are many kingdoms which were not nationally Greek, so why should their coinage be included in this trade restriction?
this is much like Italy claiming everything termed 'Roman', even though a large portion of those coins were struck by non Romans and never circulated in Italy.

it is also frustrating for us on this side of the pond to be restricted in this way while others countries continue to trade freely. that doesn't really seem fair, does it?
and i won't even begin the arguement that these items are in better hands with collectors than locked away in some warehouse or treasury somewhere. i'm not sure that anyone who frequents this board would argue that point very whole-heartedly.

~ Peter
Logged

Robert_Brenchley
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7238

Honi soit qui mal y pense.


WWW
« Reply #101 on: August 29, 2010, 01:06:53 pm »

What's the proper way to call them in your opinion? "Judaean" maybe?

If they were minted in Judea, yes. I've never been comforatble with the tradition of classifying them all - including Judean coins - as 'Greek'. Many of them are nothing of the sort, and the average policeman isn't likely to understand the difference!
Logged

Robert Brenchley

My gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
commodus
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Deceased Member
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3374



« Reply #102 on: August 29, 2010, 05:44:35 pm »

Along this same line of thought, what about the so-called "Greek Imperial" coins which are, in fact, Roman Provincial. Should these be classed as Greek or Roman and do they fall under the proposed Italian or the proposed Greek import bans? What about coinage of Greek colonies in Sicily. Where do they fit in? Are they going to be claimed as cultural property by Greece or by Italy? What of the coinage of Greek colonies in Gaul? Will Greece claim these as its cultural property -- or will France, should it jump on this bandwagon? OWhat of Roman coins struck under the Republic and early Empire in Sicily, southern Gaul, and Spain, which were ethnically and culturally Greek but which were Roman provinces and which are in neither Greece nor Italy? I ask these questions to illustrate the fallacy of such arguments about "cultural property" and restrictions thereon, though I would like to know how they actually plan to handle this and wonder if they've thought it through. I suspect those proposing such restrictions actually know very little about Classical history or geography.
Logged

Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
Roy P
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #103 on: August 30, 2010, 08:29:25 am »

Not only is the determination of WHOSE cultural property a given piece would be a difficult issue, but who is going to absorb the cost of establishing "coin police"? Is it Itay, or Greece, or the allmighty fool in the group, the good ol' USA?  In a time of global economic depression, what is the cost going to be of mounting a numismatic Gestapo to send storm troopers to the doors of law abiding collectors, who happen to like ancient coins, as opposed to modern? I happen to be of Italian lineage, and feel coins are my patrimony as much as they are of a state that didn't exist when the coins were made.
Logged
rover1.3
Tribunus Plebis 2012 / Procurator Monetae
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1604



« Reply #104 on: August 30, 2010, 08:33:32 am »

Quote from: commodus on August 29, 2010, 05:44:35 pm
I suspect those proposing such restrictions actually know very little about Classical history or geography.

I have realized that as far as History, Geography etc, everybody knows what he likes to know, and what he wants to know, so let's not play the game "I know, you don't" here. Leads to nothing.
Logged
mwilson603
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1252


« Reply #105 on: August 30, 2010, 10:18:09 am »

I happen to be of Italian lineage, and feel coins are my patrimony as much as they are of a state that didn't exist when the coins were made.

I'm in a mischievious mood, and thinking out loud more than anything else, so take the following lightly.  Although if anyone with any legal knowledge thinks this could actually tie the bureaucrats up for a while whilst they work out how to disprove, or take appropriate action against the following suggestion............

So at the moment it appears that 2 governments are claiming ownership of artifacts that when logic or common sense is applied, it is obvious that they don't/can't own.  E.g. Roman coins minted in Britain.  So playing the game by their own rules, if someone could claim to be a direct descendant of one of the emperors, and could produce any kind of proof, whether it was strong evidence or not, would they then be able to throw a request to Italy for return of any artifacts produced under that emperor's reign.  At the same time maybe the same person could send a request to the Italian Govt requesting export restrictions on their emperors cultural property?

regards

Mark
Logged
commodus
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Deceased Member
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3374



« Reply #106 on: August 30, 2010, 10:36:19 am »

Quote from: commodus on August 29, 2010, 05:44:35 pm
I suspect those proposing such restrictions actually know very little about Classical history or geography.

I have realized that as far as History,Geography etc,everybody knows what he likes to know,and what he wants to know,so let's not play the game "I know,you don't" here. Leads to nothing.


What in the world are you talking about?
It sounds as if you are defending those who support such restrictions!
Clearly, the argument for this ban is based on modern boundaries and modern politics. Had those seeking it even a sliver of understanding of the history and historical geography involved (bureaucrats seldom do, regardless of the country) they might realize how absurd such restrictions are.
Logged

Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
Roy P
Legionary
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« Reply #107 on: August 30, 2010, 10:41:06 am »

What everything really boils down to, on a large scale, is that in international negotiations, these items are just bargaining chips. Your rights will be traded away, in return, Italy will quit poisoning some endangered insect, and Greece will quit hunting unicorns.
Logged
cliff_marsland
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 841

O Sulla, please save us from fools and villains.


WWW
« Reply #108 on: August 30, 2010, 10:54:42 am »

All the proponents are interested in is redistribution; plain and simple.  Not fairness, not any of that.  There's absolutely nothing noble about the whole repatriation crap..  A bit of Napoleon complex/envy also comes in because the glories were so, so long ago. I'd be frustrated too if my last success was in the third or 4th century.

If it were on a voluntary basis, ok.  If a museum were foolish enough to give back anything that's their business.  However, I'm always vehemently against any totalitarian measure.  It would be about as noble (not very - and the exact same principle) as Hermann Goering plundering art collections for his own gain.  One person's 'fairness' is another person's enforced theft.

Insofar as implementing it, it would be a total disaster.  We all know Prohibition worked out really well!  I'm not a drinker, but even I would have rushed out to a speakeasy to be show my disapproval.

If only we had Cicero to be our advocate.  He would have made the proponents look like Cataline - although it probably wouldn't take an advocate of Cicero's skill to do that.

Fortunately, we're all pretty much on the same wavelength that this is a terrible idea and we all oppose it. 

It takes two to tango, however.  A common-sense State Dept. (like that's going to happen) could easily derail this.  Let us not forget it would be up to our people to agree to such a demand.

Such schemes, if implemented, would serve only to foster extreme hostility against the host countries (and the quislings that would agree to such a measure).

The irony seems to be lost on the Greeks that now they themselves act like the Persians, demanding earth and water from us.

One good is that collectors of all persuasions (left, right and center) are becoming unified in their opposition to this.   Everyone is unified in common sense. 

Logged

rover1.3
Tribunus Plebis 2012 / Procurator Monetae
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1604



« Reply #109 on: August 30, 2010, 11:29:53 am »

Quote from: commodus on August 30, 2010, 10:36:19 am
Quote from: commodus on August 29, 2010, 05:44:35 pm
I suspect those proposing such restrictions actually know very little about Classical history or geography.

I have realized that as far as History,Geography etc,everybody knows what he likes to know,and what he wants to know,so let's not play the game "I know,you don't" here. Leads to nothing.


What in the world are you talking about?
It sounds as if you are defending those who support such restrictions!
Clearly, the argument for this ban is based on modern boundaries and modern politics. Had those seeking it even a sliver of understanding of the history and historical geography involved (bureaucrats seldom do, regardless of the country) they might realize how absurd such restrictions are.


I guess you didn't understand what i wrote,so here it is again.

I have realized that as far as History,Geography etc,everybody knows what he likes to know,and what he wants to know,so let's not play the game "I know,you don't" here. Leads to nothing.
Logged
commodus
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Deceased Member
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3374



« Reply #110 on: August 30, 2010, 11:42:37 am »

Repeating the same statement word for word doesn't actually clarify it.

Logged

Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
xintaris75
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 356



« Reply #111 on: August 30, 2010, 12:10:18 pm »

Please, stop the unnecessary and unfair generalizations and distortions.
The issue raised by the Greek Government, is a result of appearing on the market freshly digged hoards of small denominations ancient coins from the Greek mainland, which hardly could be found far from their place of minting.
These examples are results of criminal digger's and smuggler's work or it's a part of old collectionpolice
http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewsale&sid=198&cid=2236&s=b
Logged

Ω ΖΕΥ, ΠΑΤΕΡ ΖΕΥ,
ΣΟΝ ΜΕΝ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΥ ΚΡΑΤΟΣ.
ΣΥ Δ' ΕΡΓ' ΕΠ' ΑΝΘΡΩΠΩΝ ΟΡΑΪΣ
ΛΕΩΡΓΑ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΜΙΣΤΑ.
ΣΟΙ ΔΕ ΘΗΡΙΩΝ ΥΒΡΙΣ ΤΕ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΚΗ ΜΕΛΕΙ.
dltcoins
Guest
« Reply #112 on: August 30, 2010, 12:23:45 pm »

Quote from: commodus on August 30, 2010, 10:36:19 am

Clearly, the argument for this ban is based on modern boundaries and modern politics. Had those seeking it even a sliver of understanding of the history and historical geography involved (bureaucrats seldom do, regardless of the country) they might realize how absurd such restrictions are.


I wonder if Zahi Hawass has considered returning Egypt's Hellenistic treasures to Macedonia?
Logged
cliff_marsland
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 841

O Sulla, please save us from fools and villains.


WWW
« Reply #113 on: August 30, 2010, 12:26:58 pm »

It's a very slippery slope when one forces the burden of proof that the item is "legitimate" (very nebulous term) onto the collector/dealer.  For every one illegally digged (sic) coin there's 500 legitimate collector who is hurt.

The truth may be rude, but I see nothing that's fundamentally untrue.
Logged

commodus
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Deceased Member
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3374



« Reply #114 on: August 30, 2010, 04:11:33 pm »

Please, stop the unnecessary and unfair generalizations and distortions.
The issue raised by the Greek Government, is a result of appearing on the market freshly digged hoards of small denominations ancient coins from the Greek mainland, which hardly could be found far from their place of minting.
These examples are results of criminal digger's and smuggler's work or it's a part of old collectionpolice
[LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]


Fair enough, if so. However (and a big "however" it is), the verbiage I've seen thus far suggests something far more broad and similar to the Italian import ban request (i.e. the MOU).
Logged

Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
Will Hooton
Comitia Curiata II
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1034


SUSPIRIUM PUELLAM GULIELMUS THRAEX!


« Reply #115 on: September 03, 2010, 11:07:26 am »

In his blog Paul Barford today writes;

"No doubt there will be wild jubilation in the caves of the coin elves tonight as the news seeps underground that ancient coins were not included by the State Department in the extension of the bilateral cultural property agreement between Italy and the USA. Nobody knew whether Italy had asked for this or not, it seems they had not. ".

So case closed? Please also enjoy Barford's sour fume! Smiley
Logged

cliff_marsland
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 841

O Sulla, please save us from fools and villains.


WWW
« Reply #116 on: September 03, 2010, 11:57:22 am »

This is good news. Very cool!

I'm not familiar with Paul Bradford.  I usually don't frequent such media, as listening to Lord Haw-Haw would be pretty interchangeable.  I wonder if Bradford signs on "Archaeology Calling, Archaeology calling?" (a joke based on those familiar with William Joyce's sign-on phrase).

John Enos has one of the best mean point and laugh type laughs.  Big Enos laugh here.  This is great!

That bit of news made my Friday better. The triumph of freedom is always welcome news.  At first, I was pretty worked up about the whole mess, but I came to realize countries like Italy and Greece will probably be snubbed.  Now if Syria, Egypt, or such asks, then we might have something to worry about...
Logged

areich
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8921



WWW
« Reply #117 on: September 03, 2010, 12:02:34 pm »

Since when do Elves live in caves?
What a dummy.  Grin
Logged

Will Hooton
Comitia Curiata II
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1034


SUSPIRIUM PUELLAM GULIELMUS THRAEX!


« Reply #118 on: September 03, 2010, 12:10:38 pm »


John Enos has one of the best mean point and laugh type laughs.  Big Enos laugh here.  This is great!


What bout NelsonGrin
Logged

Robert_Brenchley
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7238

Honi soit qui mal y pense.


WWW
« Reply #119 on: September 03, 2010, 12:13:40 pm »

In his blog Paul Barford today writes;

"No doubt there will be wild jubilation in the caves of the coin elves tonight as the news seeps underground that ancient coins were not included by the State Department in the extension of the bilateral cultural property agreement between Italy and the USA. Nobody knew whether Italy had asked for this or not, it seems they had not. ".

So case closed? Please also enjoy Barford's sour fume! Smiley

It seems everyone isn't as daft as Barford.
Logged

Robert Brenchley

My gallery: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/index.php?cat=10405
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
Gert
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1132



WWW
« Reply #120 on: September 03, 2010, 12:33:36 pm »

Let's celebrate when the source of this news is something else than Mr. Barford's blog.
Regards
Gert
Logged

Dino
Procurator Caesaris
Quaestor
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1513


Anyone have change for a hemidrachm?


WWW
« Reply #121 on: September 03, 2010, 12:37:30 pm »

See here on the Greek issue:

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#docketDetail?R=DOS-2010-0339
Logged

El Reye
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 267



« Reply #122 on: September 03, 2010, 08:05:15 pm »

Has anyone seen any definitive collaborating statements from any governmental agencies supporting Mr. Barfords statements?

Cameron
Logged

“We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.”
Aesop   Greek slave & fable author (620 BC - 560 BC)
goldenancients
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1012


Danny Jones


WWW
« Reply #123 on: September 03, 2010, 09:03:57 pm »

I'm hesitant to post a link to Barford's page on this board, but here it is in his own words:
http://paul-barford.blogspot.com/2010/09/coins-not-in-italy-cultural-agreement.html

And also a commentary on his announcement:
http://culturalpropertyobserver.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.html

Apparently, Barford was privy to some leaked inside information, but has yet to share his source. Nothing has yet been said officially.
Logged

cliff_marsland
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 841

O Sulla, please save us from fools and villains.


WWW
« Reply #124 on: September 03, 2010, 10:41:11 pm »

Haha, love the Nelson!

Today happened to be my coin buy.  I've been saving, so it wasn't expensive, but it was the Roman Republic!  Take that, Bradford!  Hopefully he'll read this page so I can say,

HA-HA!

I rarely order pizza, but I think this calls for a celebratory pizza!  (Unfortunately no coal-fired oven pizzerias around here - yum) but it's round and pizza in the academic sense.







Logged

Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Time to Speak Out « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 2.721 seconds with 71 queries.