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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Time to Speak Out 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Time to Speak Out  (Read 55666 times)
C.Gallvs
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« Reply #100 on: May 22, 2010, 10:23:06 am »

Did something happen?

Any news?
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« Reply #101 on: May 29, 2010, 01:02:45 pm »

They're taking their sweet time about it.  I just did a google search, and didn't find anything about it.  I found some amusing propaganda wanting to say yes.  Whenever I see things like that, the Andy Kaufman in me comes out (I love his "helpful hints")., and it makes me quite giddy that my coin orders put a frown on the face of the individuals who want to take our coins away.  I plan on adding another frown today. 

I wouldn't obey the decree anyway if they sell us out, but it would be nice to know the decision.

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« Reply #102 on: May 29, 2010, 01:08:27 pm »

I wouldn't obey the decree anyway if they sell us out, but it would be nice to know the decision.

right on brother!
Viva la Revolucion'!

defiantly,
~ Peter
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cliff_marsland
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« Reply #103 on: May 29, 2010, 03:15:37 pm »

In peaceful, yet defiant, civil disobedience, we should all go buy something from Forum, or whatever dealer one happens to frequent.  I have my eye on a Nero that I will purchase once my question about availability is answered.

or better yet..antiquities; that'll really get the nattering nabobs in a tizzy.  Forum has a large selection of such.  I never really got into antiquities because I don't have anywhere to properly display them and the good stuff is really expensive.  Some of the decorated bowls are surprisingly affordable, though, as well as some of the Egyptian figurines.
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paul1888
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« Reply #104 on: June 24, 2010, 08:14:24 am »

Has anyone heard any new infomation on this?  Seems to have gotten really quiet.

Paul
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« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2010, 12:33:05 pm »

It is quiet.  I'm guessin gthat State has other more serious issues they're dealing with at the moment.
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« Reply #106 on: August 27, 2010, 03:34:25 pm »

a new front!
i guess it was inevitable really, but i just recieved this email from CNG...

Quote
We've recently learned that the government of Greece has asked the United States to implement new import restrictions on Greek cultural property. We're asking for your help to oppose any new restrictions on the trade of coins.
 
Although we don't know exactly which objects are specified in the confidential request, we have reason to believe coins of Greek origin are included. In the past, coins from Greece have not been subject to restrictions of this type. If this new request is granted, the impact on both collectors and dealers could be substantial. We're asking you to help by making your thoughts known to the Cultural Property Advisory Committee (CPAC), which will soon evaluate the Greek request. Please see our instructions below to send CPAC your comments.
 
Why should you oppose these import restrictions? Industry attorney Peter Tompa has suggested that collectors consider the following points:
US law requires that restrictions only be applied on artifacts "first discovered in Greece." But hoard evidence demonstrates that Greek coins circulated extensively outside the confines of the modern Greek nation state.
US law requires restrictions only be placed on artifacts of "cultural significance." But coins -- which exist in many multiples-- do not meet that particular criteria.
US law requires that less drastic remedies be tried before import restrictions. But Greece has not tried systems akin the the UK Treasure Act before seeking restrictions.
US law requires that restrictions be consistent with the interests of the international community in cultural exchanges. But restrictions will diminish the ability of American collectors to appreciate Greek culture and could greatly limit people to people contacts with other collectors in Europe.
Restrictions are unfair and discriminatory to Americans. Collectors in the EU--including Greece-- have no similar limitations on their ability to import ancient coins.

To find out more about Greece's request, you may visit the Cultural Heritage Center site maintained by the US Department of State. In addition, Peter Tompa maintains a blog in which he discusses his opinions of the Greek request.
 
Please send your comments to the Cultural Property Advisory Committee through the following US government Web site before September 22:
 
Submit a comment now

Thank you for your help in this matter.
The Staff at CNG, Inc.

i'm already late for work, but i wanted this posted asap.

~ Peter
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commodus
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« Reply #107 on: August 27, 2010, 05:37:37 pm »

Yes, it is happening again. This time with Greece. I was about to post the very same email but Peter beat me to it. The first I learned of this was today from this CNG emailing.
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #108 on: August 28, 2010, 12:16:19 am »

Oh boy; I just saw this.  I don't really collect that much Greek stuff, but it sure makes me want to buy a Greek coin!  Don't these clowns have anything better to do?  Such as maybe not imploding as a country?

Danggumit, my mp3 player died this week and I ordered a new one. An owl, even though I'm not really into those,  would have been a perfect sign of defiance, but I don't wish to dip further into savings at the moment. A New Style Tet would be appropriate though.  Kind of a double insult, since Athens was under the Roman thumb at the time, and the fact that the New Style ones are awesome!

On second thought, I'd rather have a Seleucid Tet. The mainland's not been very relevant since 338 B.C.

Do they claim Hellenistic things as well?  If they're going to play that game, wouldn't the country of Macedonia have the better claim on the great majority of Greek things outside of Achaea?  Or even various Muslim countries?  Oh well, we're not supposed to think about logic; we're supposed to shut up and do the feel good thing.  We're supposed to do like Mr. Van Driessen from Beavis and Butt-head, strum a guitar and sing 'climb a mountain." Well, sorry, I'm not a van Driessen.  What about all the things plundered from Greece by the Romans?  Oops, I'm thinking again..not supposed to do that.

I've long reached the point where I'm sick of it, and I am blatantly hostile towards people/institutions that want to take our coins away   We're not hurting anything  Leave us alone. Bullies need to be stood up to.

I think now would be a good time to buy some Tets as a show of solidarity.  Forum has many nice ones.  Better yet, buy the owls and mainland issues that will really drive the nabobs nuts.

Ah, if only Pompey Magnus were in our State Dept., "Little man..."  He was quoting to an Athenian too  How very ironic.   Oh well, wishful thinking.

I have a feeling that nothing will happen in the end, but I'll support just about any cause for collectors.

 I think Italy and Greece will be snubbed off for the time-being, but I will be very concerned if Egypt, Syria, Persia, Jordan etc. suddenly want to get into the action. 








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Roy P
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« Reply #109 on: August 28, 2010, 07:53:05 am »

It seems like that which was originally created for the possession of the masses is now a top state priority for repatriation. Hello.... We are not talking about pieces of the Forum or the Parthanon. These are not DaVinci paintings or pieces of regal armor. These are coins which were made to be held and owned by PEOPLE not institutions or state warehouses. These are the only pieces of history most of us can own, trade and collect.
Please, Italy and Greece, GET A CLUE!!! Undecided Undecided Undecided
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Robert_Brenchley
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« Reply #110 on: August 28, 2010, 12:34:24 pm »

We may be shooting ourselves in the foot by calling all Hellenistic coins 'Greek'.
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Robert Brenchley

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« Reply #111 on: August 28, 2010, 02:42:21 pm »

We may be shooting ourselves in the foot by calling all Hellenistic coins 'Greek'.

What's the proper way to call them in your opinion? "Judaean" maybe?
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« Reply #112 on: August 28, 2010, 02:54:49 pm »

i think Robert is using the term to denote the post-Alexander 'Greek' world. in this way there are many kingdoms which were not nationally Greek, so why should their coinage be included in this trade restriction?
this is much like Italy claiming everything termed 'Roman', even though a large portion of those coins were struck by non Romans and never circulated in Italy.

it is also frustrating for us on this side of the pond to be restricted in this way while others countries continue to trade freely. that doesn't really seem fair, does it?
and i won't even begin the arguement that these items are in better hands with collectors than locked away in some warehouse or treasury somewhere. i'm not sure that anyone who frequents this board would argue that point very whole-heartedly.

~ Peter
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« Reply #113 on: August 29, 2010, 01:06:53 pm »

What's the proper way to call them in your opinion? "Judaean" maybe?

If they were minted in Judea, yes. I've never been comforatble with the tradition of classifying them all - including Judean coins - as 'Greek'. Many of them are nothing of the sort, and the average policeman isn't likely to understand the difference!
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commodus
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« Reply #114 on: August 29, 2010, 05:44:35 pm »

Along this same line of thought, what about the so-called "Greek Imperial" coins which are, in fact, Roman Provincial. Should these be classed as Greek or Roman and do they fall under the proposed Italian or the proposed Greek import bans? What about coinage of Greek colonies in Sicily. Where do they fit in? Are they going to be claimed as cultural property by Greece or by Italy? What of the coinage of Greek colonies in Gaul? Will Greece claim these as its cultural property -- or will France, should it jump on this bandwagon? OWhat of Roman coins struck under the Republic and early Empire in Sicily, southern Gaul, and Spain, which were ethnically and culturally Greek but which were Roman provinces and which are in neither Greece nor Italy? I ask these questions to illustrate the fallacy of such arguments about "cultural property" and restrictions thereon, though I would like to know how they actually plan to handle this and wonder if they've thought it through. I suspect those proposing such restrictions actually know very little about Classical history or geography.
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #115 on: August 30, 2010, 08:29:25 am »

Not only is the determination of WHOSE cultural property a given piece would be a difficult issue, but who is going to absorb the cost of establishing "coin police"? Is it Itay, or Greece, or the allmighty fool in the group, the good ol' USA?  In a time of global economic depression, what is the cost going to be of mounting a numismatic Gestapo to send storm troopers to the doors of law abiding collectors, who happen to like ancient coins, as opposed to modern? I happen to be of Italian lineage, and feel coins are my patrimony as much as they are of a state that didn't exist when the coins were made.
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« Reply #116 on: August 30, 2010, 08:33:32 am »

Quote from: commodus on August 29, 2010, 05:44:35 pm
I suspect those proposing such restrictions actually know very little about Classical history or geography.

I have realized that as far as History, Geography etc, everybody knows what he likes to know, and what he wants to know, so let's not play the game "I know, you don't" here. Leads to nothing.
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mwilson603
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« Reply #117 on: August 30, 2010, 10:18:09 am »

I happen to be of Italian lineage, and feel coins are my patrimony as much as they are of a state that didn't exist when the coins were made.

I'm in a mischievious mood, and thinking out loud more than anything else, so take the following lightly.  Although if anyone with any legal knowledge thinks this could actually tie the bureaucrats up for a while whilst they work out how to disprove, or take appropriate action against the following suggestion............

So at the moment it appears that 2 governments are claiming ownership of artifacts that when logic or common sense is applied, it is obvious that they don't/can't own.  E.g. Roman coins minted in Britain.  So playing the game by their own rules, if someone could claim to be a direct descendant of one of the emperors, and could produce any kind of proof, whether it was strong evidence or not, would they then be able to throw a request to Italy for return of any artifacts produced under that emperor's reign.  At the same time maybe the same person could send a request to the Italian Govt requesting export restrictions on their emperors cultural property?

regards

Mark
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commodus
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« Reply #118 on: August 30, 2010, 10:36:19 am »

Quote from: commodus on August 29, 2010, 05:44:35 pm
I suspect those proposing such restrictions actually know very little about Classical history or geography.

I have realized that as far as History,Geography etc,everybody knows what he likes to know,and what he wants to know,so let's not play the game "I know,you don't" here. Leads to nothing.


What in the world are you talking about?
It sounds as if you are defending those who support such restrictions!
Clearly, the argument for this ban is based on modern boundaries and modern politics. Had those seeking it even a sliver of understanding of the history and historical geography involved (bureaucrats seldom do, regardless of the country) they might realize how absurd such restrictions are.
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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #119 on: August 30, 2010, 10:41:06 am »

What everything really boils down to, on a large scale, is that in international negotiations, these items are just bargaining chips. Your rights will be traded away, in return, Italy will quit poisoning some endangered insect, and Greece will quit hunting unicorns.
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cliff_marsland
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« Reply #120 on: August 30, 2010, 10:54:42 am »

All the proponents are interested in is redistribution; plain and simple.  Not fairness, not any of that.  There's absolutely nothing noble about the whole repatriation crap..  A bit of Napoleon complex/envy also comes in because the glories were so, so long ago. I'd be frustrated too if my last success was in the third or 4th century.

If it were on a voluntary basis, ok.  If a museum were foolish enough to give back anything that's their business.  However, I'm always vehemently against any totalitarian measure.  It would be about as noble (not very - and the exact same principle) as Hermann Goering plundering art collections for his own gain.  One person's 'fairness' is another person's enforced theft.

Insofar as implementing it, it would be a total disaster.  We all know Prohibition worked out really well!  I'm not a drinker, but even I would have rushed out to a speakeasy to be show my disapproval.

If only we had Cicero to be our advocate.  He would have made the proponents look like Cataline - although it probably wouldn't take an advocate of Cicero's skill to do that.

Fortunately, we're all pretty much on the same wavelength that this is a terrible idea and we all oppose it. 

It takes two to tango, however.  A common-sense State Dept. (like that's going to happen) could easily derail this.  Let us not forget it would be up to our people to agree to such a demand.

Such schemes, if implemented, would serve only to foster extreme hostility against the host countries (and the quislings that would agree to such a measure).

The irony seems to be lost on the Greeks that now they themselves act like the Persians, demanding earth and water from us.

One good is that collectors of all persuasions (left, right and center) are becoming unified in their opposition to this.   Everyone is unified in common sense. 

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« Reply #121 on: August 30, 2010, 11:29:53 am »

Quote from: commodus on August 30, 2010, 10:36:19 am
Quote from: commodus on August 29, 2010, 05:44:35 pm
I suspect those proposing such restrictions actually know very little about Classical history or geography.

I have realized that as far as History,Geography etc,everybody knows what he likes to know,and what he wants to know,so let's not play the game "I know,you don't" here. Leads to nothing.


What in the world are you talking about?
It sounds as if you are defending those who support such restrictions!
Clearly, the argument for this ban is based on modern boundaries and modern politics. Had those seeking it even a sliver of understanding of the history and historical geography involved (bureaucrats seldom do, regardless of the country) they might realize how absurd such restrictions are.


I guess you didn't understand what i wrote,so here it is again.

I have realized that as far as History,Geography etc,everybody knows what he likes to know,and what he wants to know,so let's not play the game "I know,you don't" here. Leads to nothing.
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« Reply #122 on: August 30, 2010, 11:42:37 am »

Repeating the same statement word for word doesn't actually clarify it.

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Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)
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« Reply #123 on: August 30, 2010, 12:10:18 pm »

Please, stop the unnecessary and unfair generalizations and distortions.
The issue raised by the Greek Government, is a result of appearing on the market freshly digged hoards of small denominations ancient coins from the Greek mainland, which hardly could be found far from their place of minting.
These examples are results of criminal digger's and smuggler's work or it's a part of old collectionpolice
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« Reply #124 on: August 30, 2010, 12:23:45 pm »

Quote from: commodus on August 30, 2010, 10:36:19 am

Clearly, the argument for this ban is based on modern boundaries and modern politics. Had those seeking it even a sliver of understanding of the history and historical geography involved (bureaucrats seldom do, regardless of the country) they might realize how absurd such restrictions are.


I wonder if Zahi Hawass has considered returning Egypt's Hellenistic treasures to Macedonia?
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