uncleaned lot/Romulus Remus

[Zeeuwsepiep]

1 coin from an uncleaned lot, it doesn't look familiar to me and seems different from the ones usually found in uncleaned lots. Any suggestions?

[Scotvs Capitis]

Your reverse is upside down, its a Roma commemorative with Romulus and Remus and the capitoline wolf, the two stars go at the top. The bust on the obverse is facing right instead of the usual left, which I have never seen.

[Matthew W2]

That is a rare find! (and indeed the reverse is upside down in your photo, as already pointed out)


I am fairly certain that it is an Ostrogothic wolf and twins of Theodoric.

The style of the crest on the helmet looks like the Ostrogothic issue, and the symbol between the stars
on the reverse cinches it - I have never seen this on an Urbs Roma commemorative, even a barbarous one.
The obverse inscription on yours is hard to read though - on the Ostrogothic issue it would be "Invicta Roma"

Here is one at wildwinds that has a similar crest on the obverse:
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/other/t.html

Forum member jbc has a good picture of one of these as well in the gallery, with the reverse quite clear, and the same symbol between the
stars as on yours (though the crest on the obverse is not so clear).

It's not impossible for a barbarous Urbs Roma to have the portrait facing right (I've seen about 5 of these in 12 years of looking),
but the other aspects of the coin are more consistent with the Ostrogothic issue.



One of the Ostrogothic ones sold on ebay last November, in better condition but with slightly different style (I've put the link below, but I'm not sure how long it will be valid)
[Broken link removed by ADMIN]

[Scotvs Capitis]

Ostrogothic wolf and twins of Theodoric? Wow, if so, that IS a nice find. As junky as uncleaned lots have been in the past years, they still turn up some nice finds from time to time.

[Zeeuwsepiep]

Thanks guys!I turned the image upside down, it looks indeed like a wolf and two children below it. The images on this forum almost all show the emperor looking the other way. I can not locate the pics of foum member jbc, I guess I am still a newbie what this forum concerns.

How old would this particular coin approximately be?

Could it be related this this coin? https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=46

[quisquam]

This is the coin Matthew mentioned:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-49377

Stefan

[Ardatirion]

The size would be a big factor in determining whether or not this is Ostrogothic. It seems more like an official issue or a contemporary imitation to me.

[Matthew W2]

Thanks guys!I turned the image upside down, it looks indeed like a wolf and two children below it. The images on this forum almost all show the emperor looking the other way. I can not locate the pics of foum member jbc, I guess I am still a newbie what this forum concerns.

How old would this particular coin approximately be?

Could it be related this this coin? https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=46

If it's Ostrogothic, it would have been made in about 500 AD or so - I don't know the dates on these very well.

If it's a contemporary imitation of an Urbs Roma, then sometime between 330-350 AD (on the Urbs Roma coins, the obverse depicts Roma - the female goddess who personified the city of Rome, not an emperor).

I can't see the coin you've linked to - is the link right?

The size would definitely help in identifying it.

[Zeeuwsepiep]

Hi Matthew, the coin measures 1.4 measures sideways and 1.5 cm topdown. I hope this will help. I haven;t seen one on which the emperor looks to the right.

[Matthew W2]

Hi Matthew, the coin measures 1.4 measures sideways and 1.5 cm topdown. I hope this will help. I haven;t seen one on which the emperor looks to the right.

Hmm, that is too small to be Ostrogothic, I think, (as far as I know those should be about 20 mm or larger) but puts it squarely in the range of the Urbs Roma imitations.

Could it be a contemporary imitation of the Ostrogothic issue?


Of course, it is possible that I am wrong about its Ostrogothic appearance, and that Scotvs Capitis had it right from the start, but I just can't reconcile the
style of your coin with the Urbs Roma coinage or its imitators.

If it is an imitative Urbs Roma, it seems to be fairly unusual - aside even from the right facing portrait.

[Matthew W2]

In thinking about your coin a bit more, I think I was wrong about any Ostrogothic connection. The mark on the reverse between the stars looks like it is connected to the area above the wolf's hindquarters - maybe it was just a trick of the light that made me initially think it was part of the coin's design. (one last check though, would be to see if it was raised like the stars or if it was flat like the rest of the field).


So here are two barbarous imitations of Urbs Roma coins with right facing portraits. This first one definitely has a crude portrait style, with the mintmark in the exergue on the reverse (SLG) in imitation of a coin from Lyon (Lugdunum). This one is 15.25 mm and 1.42 grams, with die alignment of 90 degrees.







This second one is smaller, with a different obverse style, and blundered obverse legends - it looks like there are five characters on the left side, but I can't really make any of them out. Despite the different obverse style, the reverse has mintmark ( PLG), and so also imitative of an issue from Lyon. It is 13.98 mm, and 1.11 grams, with die alignment of 270 degrees.







The die alignment on both is atypical for official issues, and is another clue to an imitative coin - but not an unambiguous one, an imitation could have the correct die alignment of 0 or 180 degrees.

The obverse style of the second coin I linked to is not entirely dissimilar from yours, though yours has more detail in the portrait (and also seems somewhat different). But, I can't see any trace of a legend on the obverse of yours, which would provide good information. Is there anything you can make out in person?

On the reverse, I also can't see anything in the exergue, except for a blob-like thing in the middle, and something that might be a curved part of a G or C or Q(?) on the right side.
Can you make out anything on the left that may not show up in the photo? Or any more detail to the blob in the middle?


Forum member adrianus also has a right facing Urbs Roma:
https://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=1296&pos=16
and another 19 images of imitative issues in the same gallery folder, which are worth a look too.



ps. Sorry for the less than optimal photos, my scanner is really struggling with these coins - it has a very shallow depth of field. I'm working on a macro lens and setup, at which point I should be able to post much better photos of these coins (photography skills willing.... - so no promises

[Archaic]

I also have a very small AE4 with right facing emperor that looks like this coin. But the D is only 0,9mm.
Is that always barbaric immitation?

[Matthew W2]

I also have a very small AE4 with right facing emperor that looks like this coin. But the D is only 0,9mm.
Is that always barbaric immitation?

There were no official releases of Urbs Roma commemoratives with right facing portraits.

So they are definitely all unofficial, but who made them and why are bigger questions - were they official coinage
for some other government, or were they forgeries intended to deceive? I don't think there is one answer for all of the coins, likely
either (or maybe other explanations too) could be true depending on the coin.


Do you have a scan of it that you could post?

[Matthew W2]

I stumbled across this coin today, and it reminded me of the portrait on yours - this one is a Valentinian II.

This leads me to wonder if your coin might be a mule between an obverse of a particular emperor (maybe even
Valentinian, like this one, though he began his reign about 25 years too late for this series) and a wolf and twins reverse.

I have seen a few other Constantinian era coins with similar right facing portraits with crested helms, which would be
more in the right time frame (but can't find any images off the bat).

I have seen a few mules of this sort, with wolf and twins reverses - one with Crispus I believe, though I can't find that
image now either - I really need to index my image collection!

It would still make it an imitative coin, but nonetheless interesting.

Here is the picture I found today (not mine, nor the coin):

[Zeeuwsepiep]

Thanks Matthew. I have found another romulus/remus coin in a different uncleaned lot with the standard attributes. I still have no clue about my first one. I haven't been able to match it to any other coin. Even when it is a barbaric imitation, there should be more coins around.

I must say that the 40 coins I originally bought had some other rare coins as well, various from Helena for example.