Denarius Caracalla ivstitia : reference ?

[Chut]

Hello !

I am a French man, and I am 18. I collect roman coins, and I prefer the IIIrd century (the Severan, Gordian III…). I know Potator, Alwin, Septimus… : we are all members of a French forum, “Monnaies de l’antiquité” ( Frederic Weber).  
I’m sorry, but my English is not always very good…

I have bought recently this denarius of Caracalla. But I have a problem : I didn’t find the reference. The member Septimus (who is a specialist of Severan) had helped me. And he advised me to show this denarius to the other specialists of Forum Ancient Coins.

I think that the mint is Laodicea. I saw the RIC, but I don’t find really the reference. I think this denarius is maybe between the RIC 331A (obverse) and the RIC 335 (reverse). In the RIC, there is a note for the RIC 331A, but my coin had a bust which is armoured…
This denarius is maybe also the RSC 113b. But the RSC says “crude style”. And I think that my coin is a regular mint, not a barbarous imitation…

I wait for your remarks.

Obverse : IMP C M AVR ANTONINVS PONT AVG
Reverse :  IVSTITIA

[casata137ec]

The description for 331a is "bust, laureate, draped, cuirassed, r.". It seems to fit your coin. (R2 by the way) Maybe I am missing somthing?

Chris


EDIT: Yeah...I was missing somthing...on 331a the rev legend is (per RIC) IVSTITIA TR. P.   so...back to the drawing board.
C.

[Chut]

Indeed, that is the problem : the RIC 331A  has an reverse which is "IVSTITIA TRP" ... And the reverse of my denarius is only "IVSTITIA" (without "TRP").

 

[284ad]

BMCRE vol V p284 has a note at the bottom on this variant.

Apparently it exists in the L. A. Lawrence Collection the reference they give is

A.S.F.N 1886 p 102 (Eastern)

That if for the

obv: IMP C M AVR ANTONINVS PONT AVG
rev: IVSTITIA

(edit) Although again it claims it is only laureate and draped.

[Chut]

I had search the ASFN 1886, but I didn't find this book.   And the denarius which is described is only laureate and draped. And my coin is armoured (with breastplate).
 

[284ad]

I can't find the volume referred to but can find all the others unfortunately.

It is the

Annuaire de la société française de numismatique vol 10 you need.

[David S4]

If you look at the footnotes it lists a variant without the TRP.

[Chut]

Yes, I see this footnote.   But the denarius of this note is "laureate" and "draped", and my coin is laureate, draped and cuirassed. The denarius of this footnote is not cuirassed.  

Maybe my denarius is not listed in RIC...

[septimus]

As said by Chut, the best reference is not in RIC nor in BMC, it's RSC 113b with the reference Seaby's Bull., Sept. 1937, 42440 but with the mention "crude style", which is not obviously the case with Chut's coin from Laodicea (new style). So I want to know if it exists any other coin with this exact description.

[284ad]

I would want to see the coin that both the BMCRE and RIC refer to from the L. A. Lawrence Collection, as I doubt either author saw the coin and some of these older catalogues have mistakes with bust types.

Alternatively I would want to see whether other coins in the ASFN have their bust types correctly identified.

[curtislclay]

My collection of plaster casts contains two specimens of this denarius:

1. Triton VI, 2003, part 1725, Coll. Patrick Cooper. From the same dies as Chut's specimen.

2. Glendining, October 1975, Harwood Coll., part 567. From a different die pair.

All three of these known specimens have Caracalla's bust draped and cuirassed. It seems probable that the specimen reported by ASFN 1886 was the same, but inaccurately described. The mere description "bust laureate, draped" is not enough to attest a new variety, since it might so easily just be "draped, cuirassed" misreported.

As to the L.A. Lawrence specimen with rev. IVSTITIA TR P: this very coin was purchased by the BM in 1946 and it is now listed as BM 646B in the second edition of BMC (1975). It too has bust draped and cuirassed, indeed it is from the same obverse die as specimen 2 above. I think the BM even has a second specimen of the same coin, from the same dies but in better condition, acquired from my own first collection in 1991.

A related subject: my thread "Caracalla's IVSTITIA type at Rome", now on p. 3 of Forvm's Classical Numismatics.

[septimus]

Thank you Curtis, your answers are always very detailed!
The ASFN 1886 coin is not in BM as many of L. A. Lawrence coins? And what about Seaby's Bull.'s coins, it's an ancient imitation?

[284ad]

All three of these known specimens have Caracalla's bust draped and cuirassed. It seems probable that the specimen reported by ASFN 1886 was the same, but inaccurately reported: the mere description "bust laureate, draped" is not enough to attest a new variety, since it might so easily just be "draped, cuirassed" misreported.

As to the L.A. Lawrence specimen with rev. IVSTITIA TR P: this very coin was purchased by the BM in 1946 and it is now listed as BM 646B in the second edition of BMC (1975). It too has bust draped and cuirassed, indeed it is from the same obverse die as specimen 2 above.

My understanding from the note at the bottom of the BMCRE and RIC was that these were the same coin.

[curtislclay]

284ad,

No. The L.A. Lawrence Coll. coin now in BM has rev. IVSTITIA TR P. The ASFN 1886 coin has reverse IVSTITIA only, like Chut's. Two different legends for the same reverse type.

Septimus,

I can't say anything about the ASFN 1886 coin or the one in Seaby's Bulletin, because I can't immediately consult the original publications. However, it's likely that these specimens will remain untraceable: the ASFN coin probably cited from a private collection or dealer's stock, long since dispersed; the Seaby coin probably not illustrated, leaving its nature uncertain, whether official new style or an ancient imitation.

[Chut]

Thank you for your remarks ! Your intervention is very very very interesting Mr Clay ! 
Thank you so for Septimus, who had indicates to me FAC.

If I have totally understand your answer, Mr Clay, my denarius is also the third exemplar which you know ?
I am happy, this coin is now less mysterious. It is my first coin of Caracalla, and I like this portrait of the young emperor.

I think there is a “weakness” in the RIC : maybe it would be necessary to correct the RIC, by confirming a type with a cuirassed bust, and by wondering which is the bust about the denarius of 1886 of ASFN...

It could be very interesting to have the original article of the ASFN, and the photos of the 2 denarius of Triton VI and Glendining 1975…
 

I was reading your subject : "Caracalla's IVSTITIA type at Rome". It’s very interesting.
Now you can complete this subject with the new confirmation of a denarius with a bust cuirassed.

[curtislclay]

Yes, yours is the third specimen of this coin known to me, or the fourth, counting ASFN 1886.

RIC IV.1 needs more than just minor corrections: it needs to be entirely rewritten, based on material collected from the major museum collections, the market and private collections, printed publications, and the internet!

[Chut]

The denarius of the footnote in the RIC was in the collection Gnecchi. A friend gives to me a copy of the page of the ASFN of 1886 :
 


Number 74 :

 

[curtislclay]

That is good news, for the Gnecchi Collection was acquired by the Italian state and is now in the Museo Nazionale in Rome. So it is very likely that the denarius in question can indeed be checked today, and we can see whether the bust is draped only as stated, or actually draped and cuirassed as on the other three specimens.

Unfortunately when I visited the National Museum in Rome forty years ago, I spent all my time making impressions of the fabulous Roman medallions, bronze coins, and gold coins in the Gnecchi collection, and was unable to view the silver coins at all!

[septimus]

Unfortunately when I visited the National Museum in Rome forty years ago, I spent all my time making impressions of the fabulous Roman medallions, bronze coins, and gold coins in the Gnecchi collection, and was unable to view the silver coins at all!

  Lucky man!

[Potator II]

Unfortunately when I visited the National Museum in Rome forty years ago, I spent all my time making impressions of the fabulous Roman medallions, bronze coins, and gold coins in the Gnecchi collection, and was unable to view the silver coins at all!

Yes, poor you, Curtis 

Potator 

[Chut]

That is good news, for the Gnecchi Collection was acquired by the Italian state and is now in the Museo Nazionale in Rome. So it is very likely that the denarius in question can indeed be checked today, and we can see whether the bust is draped only as stated, or actually draped and cuirassed as on the other three specimens.

Unfortunately when I visited the National Museum in Rome forty years ago, I spent all my time making impressions of the fabulous Roman medallions, bronze coins, and gold coins in the Gnecchi collection, and was unable to view the silver coins at all!

It is a good piece of news !!