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Author Topic: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?  (Read 9356 times)

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Offline cicerokid

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Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« on: December 10, 2009, 04:40:46 pm »

I have only seen a couple of I believe, Claudius denerii on e-bay from reputable dealers both reverse Nemesis, and none I think of genuine Caligula.
Tiberius in comparison  is common esp the "Tribute Penny". So is Augustus as emperor esp the intresting obverse of his unfortunate heirs.

Cicerokid
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Offline mix_val

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2009, 04:56:40 pm »
Good question!  I thought that it might be because of the silver content and so they were melted down as denarii became debased.  Our experts can give us a better idea
Bob Crutchley
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Offline commodus

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2009, 12:41:30 am »
I've heard that thought put forth before but the question remains: why not their predecessors?
By the way, their gold coinage isn't easy to find, either.
Eric Brock (1966 - 2011)

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2009, 03:33:21 pm »
The melting down theory seems to fall down because of the amount of earlier silver that survives. I find it hard to believe that they minted insignificant amounts of silver over a matter of 17 years or so; they must surely have minted it to pay the legions. It's possible that Claudius could have had Caligula's coins melted selectively as an act of damnatio, but that would not explain the paucity of his own silver. On the face of it, nothing works, yet there has to be an explanation!
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Offline Galaxy

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2009, 04:02:31 pm »
Claudius' coinage, as well as Caligula's and 'Young Nero', suffered from being readily in circulation when Neros' coinage reforms were passed in AD 64. Gresham's Law comes into effect, meaning that the bad coinage drives out the good. Many of the surviving Augustus and Tiberius examples were probably stashed away by this point already, but the more recent coinage didn't have as long of a chance to get cached, and as such the circulating numbers were available to be recalled and melted down. This is also why so many of the Young Nero, Caligula, and Claudius silvers are in such fine shape - Show me well-circulated ones and I'll be surprised!




Offline silvernut

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2009, 04:51:21 pm »
I've recently read Duncan-Jones' 'Money and government in the Roman Empire'. In it, although it doesn't exactly address this thread's topic, it mentions that hoard evidence show a huge difference in precious metal coinage during pre-Nero between Italy and the provinces, this being much more common in provincial hoards than in Italian hoards. He suggests 2 possibilities: a recall of precious metal by Nero that might have drained Italy (implausible), or simply a big autonomy of the provincial mints which allowed them to output more silver and gold coins. This could be caused by the fact that there were very few troops within Italy, army pay being one of the empire's greatest money need.

Now, the difference between post-Tiberius silver and gold scarcity could be an after-effect of Tiberian credit crisis combined with Caligula's lavishness. Rome didn't produce much silver, anyway, and maybe the provincial mints felt a shortage of precious metal during the reigns of Caligula and Claudius.

Nero's reforms of 64 AD are reflected in hoard evidence by a more homogeneous distribution of gold and silver throughout the Roman territory.

A very interesting topic, in any case!

Regards,
Ignasi

Offline cicerokid

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2009, 05:06:32 pm »
It must have been one heck of a coinage reform.
Caligula  37-41, little boots liked (or feared his army) so must have paid them well, even though it was reletively a quiet time, but he was a big  big spender.
Claudius 41-54 AD, 13 years of minting denarii for the troops ( they nominated him), as well as conquering Britain, well England, which provided silver from the lead mines.
Now on e-bay alone from reputable dealers I have seen  reletively plenty of Galba's (June 68 -Jan 69), Otho's, (Jan 69 -Apr69),and Vitellius's, ( Jan-dec 69) denarii, so there must have been plenty of silver around  to bribe the troops ( OK so Galba refused to pay a bounty to his troops), and I have not heard it was even more debased silver denarii than Nero's latter silver. And there is relatively plenty of that even thoughl he only survived 4 years from his coinage reform.
Look how many Mark Anthony legionary denarii survive and how worn they are .They  might be of Greek/ Egyptian silver but the denarii are found all over the roman world ( I believe).
The apparent lack of casual finds of Caligula's and Claudius's denarii must mean surely  many fewer denarii were actually minted. V-coins have no such  denerii , Forum did have a Caligula ONCE for £1495!
Ironically I have seen auerii of both several times for sale!
 
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Offline Joe Geranio

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2012, 03:47:14 am »
They are out there, but not on ebay/
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Offline cicerokid

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2012, 05:00:46 pm »

 Almost Two and a half years later and looking at auction sites on SIXBID and others plus e-bay. I repeat it must of been one heck of a recall.

Tribute pennies are " 2 a penny" so is the Augustus " Gaius & Lucius", so are later Nero's, earlier pre-reform Nero's I have seen, but like I say dispite paying loads of gratuities to soldiers and a combined emporage of 18 years casual finds of Gaius & Claudius  denerii are rarer than hens teeth!
A few months only of Otho and I can still find several on V coins for sale NOW no problem.
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Lloyd Taylor

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2012, 06:00:55 pm »
Why are most coins of the Emperor Caligula rare?

Answer: They were recalled by the Senate and melted down. After his death, the Senate decreed (among other things) that all of Caligula's coins be recalled from circulation and melted down. Although his reign lasted only about four years, his coins are much scarcer than those of Titus, who reigned for only two years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae .... the Senate wanted to condemn the memory of Caligula, but Claudius prevented this.

Refer also following extract from Mutilation and transformation: damnatio memoriae and Roman imperial portraiture by Eric R. Varner. I am sure Curtis Clay has much more to offer on the subject.  He has presented a definitive talk on the subject referred to by Varner... Claudius and the Coinage of Caligula: Nimusmatic Damnatio Memoriae under the Roman Empire presented at The Science of Numismatics Chicago 27 March 1996

As far as I understand it (and I am not into Roman coinage so this is far from expert opinion) Claudius was a bit of a slouch when it came to issuing replacement coinage and this resulted in many shortages of coinage throughout the empire, resulting in many unofficial strikings to meet local needs. As a result, his official coinage is scarcer than the duration of his reign might suggest.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2012, 04:04:02 pm »
This may be one of those questions that will never be answered but it strikes me that mints tend to issue coins according to the needs of the economy.  Augustus and Tiberius flooded to place with denarii but not so much with bronzes.  Caligula and Claudius are relatively common in bronze but scarce in silver.  Remember that you have to include a lot of family issues in the bronze count as well as those showing Caligula himself.  If the scarcity were due to damnatio actions, I would expect Vesta asses to be scarce.  They are not.  Perhaps the mint realized that the supply of still functional denarii from Republicans, Augustus and Tiberius would allow them to concentrate on the gold and bronze coins needed more pressingly. 

If that is the case, the few Caligula coins issued would be heavier or newer and might be melted in preference to the worn old coins even before the Nero debasement made them even more desirable.  Claudius and Early Nero would follow this same pattern.  If coins were only issued as needed, there might be periods when few were needed.  Compare today how many recent manufacture US half dollars or two dollar bills you see.  If the demand is covered by existing old stock, we don't make more. 

Some early Nero silver has the legend EX SC.  Might this hint that the Senate ordered some denarii to be issued even though the Emperor, whose job it was, did not find it necessary to issue that denomination?  We might also ask where are all the early Nero bronzes since his Aes are much more often later.  Perhaps the large number of Caligula and Claudius bronzes sufficed at least to limit issues until about 64 when need forced him to issue massive numbers of coins.  This comes up again and again.  There are many worn bronzes of the Adoptive emperors but not so many of Septimius Severus

I don't claim these theories are certain explanation by any means but it does seem that there are several factors that might work together to make some issues more scarce than others without having to drop back to damnatio or alien kidnappings. 

Offline Joe Geranio

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2012, 04:16:50 pm »
Great points Doug!  Yeah, where all  the early AE's of Nero?  I have replied to this message not on a whole as far as distribution during the reigns of especially Caligula, BUT; the availabilty of them now with dealers.    They are out there, again; maybe rare is a relative term?


On Nero's portraiture on precious metals, I love how is portraits go through the proper maturation process, and bloom with his later large flan sestertius!!

Joe
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2012, 04:22:13 pm »
This may be one of those questions that will never be answered but it strikes me that mints tend to issue coins according to the needs of the economy.  Augustus and Tiberius flooded to place with denarii but not so much with bronzes.  Caligula and Claudius are relatively common in bronze but scarce in silver. 

It would explain why bronze production in the Roman Republic dropped to almost nothing after 150 BC (just small rare issues). The trigger was the switch to paying soldiers in bronze to paying them in silver about this time. Not only was new bronze not needed for military pay, but it was not needed for the market place because there was an overhang of so much circulating bronze. It took until the time of Augustus to sort itself out - right until the end of the Republic there seem to have been ample quantities of struck bronze asses (although very very very worn). No market demand, no coins minted.

Offline cliff_marsland

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2012, 12:31:37 pm »
I've never seen Alexandrian Tets of Caligula.  Did he mint any?

Denarii are quite expensive for both Caligula and Claudius, although one may find an occasional "bargain" (c. $400-500) for Claudius.  I have a decrepit Aureus of Claudius, but no denarii.

Offline Joe Geranio

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2012, 08:29:06 pm »
No tets, but here is a rare AR tetradrachm from Syria, Seleucis and Pieria. Antioch  with Agrippina.  RPC 4164.





Joe
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Offline Nicolas P

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2018, 06:13:16 pm »
Using coin rarity info from dirtyoldcoins.com/Roman-Coins-Blog/1267 and after spending a few hours hunting down the number of search results on CoinsArchive.com for the denarii of the emperors up to Gordian I and II (designing the searches as much as possible so that only the relevant coins would be counted), I came up with this graph (attached). It depicts on the y axis how rare the denarius of emperors are relative to those of Augustus (whose denarii are the most common), and on the x axis how the coins of all denominations are relative to those of Augustus. So the coins of Nero, whose point is at (2.1, 6.0), are 2.1 times rarer as those of Augustus, while his denarii appear 6 times rarer than those of Augustus. Both axes are on a log scale.

The numbers alongside the names of the emperors is the market availability of that emperor's denarius relative to the availability of his all his coins. It is the number of denarii of that emperor recently available on the market divided by the number of coins in all denominations that were recently available for that emperor. So for each Caligula denarius on the market, there are 15.5 available Caligula coins of all denominations.

This graph is shocking. Of the 27 emperors here, there are only three emperors for which this ratio is above 6: Nero, Caligula, and Claudius. For each denarius of Claudius on the market, there are a massive 274 available Claudius coins of all denominations.

Quote from: Lloyd Taylor on March 15, 2012, 06:00:55 pm
Why are most coins of the Emperor Caligula rare?

Answer: They were recalled by the Senate and melted down. After his death, the Senate decreed (among other things) that all of Caligula's coins be recalled from circulation and melted down. Although his reign lasted only about four years, his coins are much scarcer than those of Titus, who reigned for only two years.

This does not explain why Caligula's silver coins are 15.5 times rarer on the market than all of his coinage taken together. Presumably the Senate would have destroyed base metal and gold coins too.

This is a very subjective issue, ie; what types of searches are you doing to check for dealers;ie, ebay, craigslist, local coin club or the more exclusive dealers...

With respect, the rarity of Claudius denarii is more than just an impression, it is quantifiable. His denarii are rare both with respect to those of Augustus (246 times rarer) and with respect to his own coinage (273 times rarer than all his other coins combined). Gordian II ruled for 21 days in AD 238 and his denarii seem to appear almost four times more often on the market than those of Claudius, who ruled 14 years.

One of the explanations given above is that Nero recalled the silver coins in circulation and re-minted them with debased silver. This would explain both the rarity of Claudius's and Caligula's silver coinage. The problem with this explanation is that one would have expected Tiberius's silver coins to have been partially melted too, but this is not evidenced in the graph.

The number of Claudius's denarii on the market relative to those of Caligula is also intriguing and I believe important to answer the question of Claudius's "missing denarii". Suppose Claudius had continued to mint denarii at the same frequency as Caligula for the first four years of his reign and then stopped producing them completely. In this scenario, because Caligula reigned four years, there would have been at the start of Nero's reign a comparable number of Caligula and Claudius denarii in circulation. (The extra 1-4 years that Caligula's denarii would have had to be lost in the ground and preserved for numismatists compared to those of Claudius's denarii can be neglected). Yet there are 6 times more Caligula denarii on the market than denarii of Claudius. In my opinion, this strongly argues against the Nero reminting hypothesis, for this would have required selectively reminting the denarii of Claudius over those of Caligula.

There seems to be far too few Claudius denarii on the market to argue that they were actually minted but by some process destroyed before they reached us. I believe Claudius simply produced fewer denarii. Why? I'm as baffled as you are.

Offline traveler

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Re: Why are silver coins of Caligula and Claudius so uncommon?
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2018, 01:47:21 am »
There is a parallel between the denarii of Claudius, Caligula, Nero (pre-reform period) and Domitian (83-85). Denarii of these time periods are much scarcer, because they were 100% silver (as restricted by the refining technology of the ancients).

Butcher and Ponting in The Metallurgy of Roman Silver Coinage suggest that the denarii were much scarcer because of the pressures of a bimetallic currency system. In other words the prevailing gold-silver ratio made it simply unprofitable to strike silver denarii.

The authors rejected the theory that these pure silver denarii were selectively melted down: if that were so then it would stand to reason that denarii of the Republic, Augustus and Tiberius should also be rare. But that's not the case.

To further support their theory, it was noted that denarii were struck in great quantity after the silver purity was reduced by Nero and Domitian, which the authors argue, made it profitable to strike silver denarii again.

 

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