Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 1 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Expert Authentication - Accurate Descriptions - Reasonable Prices - Coins From Under $10 To Museum Quality Rarities Welcome Guest. Please login or register. 10% Off Store-Wide Sale Until 1 April!!! Explore Our Website And Find Joy In The History, Numismatics, Art, Mythology, And Geography Of Coins!!! Support Our Efforts To Serve The Classical Numismatics Community - Shop At Forum Ancient Coins

New & Reduced


Author Topic: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace  (Read 4078 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
At ROME, bronze coins were struck for Claudius in two large issues, the first without P P and the second with P P, that is the first between his accession on 25 Jan. 41 and his acceptance of the title Pater Patriae less than a year later, between 1 and 12 Jan. 42, and the second after early January 42.

The types were the same in both issues:

sestertii of Claudius with types legend in wreath OB CIVES SERVATOS, SPES AVGVSTA, and legend of Nero Claudius Drusus around triumphal arch;

sestertius of Nero Claudius Drusus with rev. legend of Claudius around Claudius seated on curule chair set on globe among arms;

dupondius of Claudius with rev. CERES AVGVSTA;

dupondius of Antonia with rev. legend of Claudius around standing togate emperor;

asses of Claudius with rev. CONSTANTIAE AVGVSTI, LIBERTAS AVGVSTA, and Minerva fighting r.;

quadrantes of Claudius with types Modius and PNR, hand holding scales.

PROVINCIAL MINTS, official and unofficial, on the other hand, struck these same types for Claudius, usually without the quadrantes, almost exclusively without P P, so apparently during the first year of his reign. There were only two exceptions of provincial mints striking these standard types of Claudius after he became P P:

1. The Spanish mint, defined by the many sestertii and dupondii of this particular style, including dozens of die duplicates, found in the Pobla de Mafumet Hoard, struck most of its bronze coins for Claudius without  P P, but, alone of the early provincial mints, continued to strike for him early in 42, now with P P, this however being a much smaller issue which probably lasted only a month or two.

I show below a "Pobla" dupondius of Claudius, this one of 41 (no P P), with the characteristic letter forms (particularly the Rs and Ms), often dots left and right of S C in rev. exergue, and the characteristic portrait with spikey hair locks. For comparison I also add a Rome-mint dupondius of the second issue, with P P. (Both images from CoinArchives)
Curtis Clay

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2009, 08:33:13 pm »
2. Thracian mint, later in reign, which had NOT struck bronzes for Claudius before he became P P. This mint copied the Roman types, but in slightly cruder style. Its dupondii often have central cavities on their flans, which never occur at Rome or at any of the other provincial mints; see the specimen that I illustrate below from CoinArchives.

Other features which suggest a Thracian or possibly Bithynian location of the mint: (a) quite a few bronze coins of this style have turned up in the flood of ancient coins that emerged from Bulgaria after the fall of the Iron Curtain. (b) Some of the sestertii in this style have Eastern countermarks, for example the SPES AVGVSTA sestertius shown below, from the website Museum of Countermarks on Roman Coins, with countermark Capricorn above rudder on globe. I think most of the Claudian bronzes known with this rare countermark are from our Thracian mint, though it can also occur on Roman and Spanish bronzes of Claudius, which had presumably found their way into circulation in Thrace or Bithynia.

What types did this mint strike? Well, sestertii of Claudius with Legend in wreath and SPES AVGVSTA, but no Arch of Drusus sestertii have yet been observed; CERES AVGVSTA dupondii of Claudius, but I haven't yet noted any dupondii of Antonia; asses of Claudius with all three normal types; no quadrantes.

The sestertius of Nero Claudius Drusus in this style seems to be rare. I first noticed a worn specimen in Oxford, odd for having S C in reverse exergue upside down, and recorded as having been purchased at Damascus c. 1880. About five years ago I bought a specimen myself from a supplier of coins from Bulgaria, from the same obv. die as the Oxford coin and also with upside down S C. Recently I have acquired another specimen, again from the same obv. die and with upside down S C, and with the countermark Capricorn over rudder on globe noted above.  See seller's image below: 22.57 gr., axis 6h.
Curtis Clay

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 09:27:09 pm »
Unfortunately these different mints for bronze coins of Claudius are hardly recorded in the standard catalogues!

Laffranchi, in an article written in 1948, was the first to recognize and separate from Rome two of the main provincial mints striking bronzes for Claudius early in his reign, including the Spanish mint mentioned above. But Sutherland, revising RIC I in 1983, was unable to see the stylistic differences pointed out by Laffranchi, so attributed all of Claudius' bronze coins to Rome.  The same RIC numbers, therefore, cover Rome and at least three major provincial mints without P P, and Rome, the Spanish mint, and the Thracian mint with P P!

Von Kaenel, in his 1986 monograph on the coinage of Claudius, recognized the two early provincial mints for bronze coins pointed out by Laffranchi, and attributed certain middle bronzes to yet a third provincial mint, though he wrongly located all of these mints in Rome, as auxiliarly mints to the main public one, rather than in the western provinces. He did not recognize the Thracian mint from later in the reign that I have treated above. His catalogue, no. 1888, pl. 43, indeed includes a Thracian CERES AVGVSTA dupondius with central indentations, but he misattributed it to the early Spanish mint, the only early provincial mint to produce bronze coins for Claudius as P P.

Giard, in his Paris catalogue of 1988, ignored both Laffranchi and von Kaenel, and, like RIC, attributed all official bronze coins of Claudius to the mint of Rome!

Individual Thracian mint coins have been recognized as such in various sale catalogues since the 1990s, but this mint has not been treated in any academic article or museum catalogue as far as I know.
Curtis Clay

Offline Roma_Orbis

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 279
  • ad avgvsta per angvsta
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 09:46:07 pm »
Curtis,

  Is the meaning of the capricorn as countermark well established? Maybe an emblem of some legion stationed in the Balkans?

Jérôme

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 10:39:31 pm »
I don't know what the meaning of the capricorn countermark is! It is not viewed as legionary in either the Richard Baker or Pangerl Collections of countermarked coins on the website Museum of Countermarks on Roman Coins.

I think the odd object below the capricorn in the countermark is definitely a rudder on globe, however. This is one of Richard Baker's suggestions, but he also says "tool", or one could see a long-necked vessel with hooked handle.

However, a globe and rudder are clearly associated with the capricorn in several reverse types of Augustus, for example the one below from CoinArchives. In the countermark, the globe is placed below the capricorn, overlapping the middle of the rudder, rather than between the beast's forelegs. The hook at the top of the rudder is a handle; the Augustan type on the denarius shown also has a handle, but it curves upward from the shaft of the rudder rather than forming a right-angled hook below the shaft.
Curtis Clay

Offline cliff_marsland

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 838
    • My gallery
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 11:49:04 pm »
I think it's a very interesting thread, as I'm interested in the branch mints, and I thank Dr. Clay for illustrating the differences.

It would be wonderful if Dr. Clay could do a similar page on Nero Perinthus types, as well.

The Balkan Sestertii illustrated look a little bit different from the abundant lightweight imitative Sestertii available as "Gallic" or "Balkan" imitations, the ones with "DV" commonly countermarked on them.  Are these from the same Balkan issue, as well?


Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 03:02:20 am »
Cliff,

Apart from the major provincial series that I wrote about, whose coins are somewhat but not a great deal lighter than the bronzes of Rome, there are other series, always without P P, generally in worse style and drastically underweight, whose status, whether official or illegal, is difficult to decide.

The underweight sestertii you ask about, that were often devalued to dupondii with the countermark DV, belong to one of these inferior series.

Unfortunately I have much less material  gathered for Nero's Thracian bronzes, which have similarly emerged in quantities in the recent Bulgarian material, and are similarly neglected or underpublished in the standard catalogues, RIC and RPC.
Curtis Clay

Offline cliff_marsland

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 838
    • My gallery
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2009, 03:14:29 am »
I have a rather worn Nero Victory type in COTD that I attribute to Perinthus..  Have you seen the victory type in Perinthus types?  There seem to be constantly new types.  Trolling through the Forum's sold pages, there's also the Decursio Sestertius type.

Could the Perinthus mint have started under Caligula?  I have a Caligula As muled with a Neptune reverse, which shares similarities to the Nero Neptune Perinthus series, that both the dealer and I tentatively attributed it to a Balkan mint.  There's an exceptionally terrible picture (sorry, I stink at coin photography) in my gallery.   It's also exceptionally similar in style to the Balkan semis tentatively attributed to Claudius for sale by forum.

I've never been blessed with more than an average coin budget, but luckily these obscure Thracian issues have flown under the radar and are generally inexpensive.

Offline Roma_Orbis

  • Consul
  • ***
  • Posts: 279
  • ad avgvsta per angvsta
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2009, 09:58:01 am »
For people interested in the coinage of Claudius, I would urge them to read an article by P.A. Besombes (curator at BN) and J.N. Barrandon (CNRS) in the Revue Numismatique periodical, available here:
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_2000_num_6_155_2281
Provided they can deal with French language.

This article covers the western coinage of Claudius (Gaul and Spain), but unfortunately, the plates are still unavailable (copyright issue).

See summary below.

Jérôme


Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 04:26:02 pm »
I said that the dupondius of Antonia was not attested for the Thracian mint, but today I found one in CoinArchives, while looking for something else! 

Note P P at the end of Claudius' titles on the reverse; and the style of this coin, especially the lettering on the reverse, is definitely too crude for Rome.

NAC R, 17 May 2007, 1433 = Gorny & Mosch 169, 12 0ct. 2008, 265, 17.76 gr., 31 mm.

Jerome, unfortunately it's hard for me to make anything out of the article without seeing the plates!


Curtis Clay

Offline cliff_marsland

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 838
    • My gallery
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2009, 11:09:41 pm »
Is there any reason why SPES AVGVSTA types were the preferred type of imitative Sestertius?

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2009, 06:18:54 pm »
Presumably because it was the simplest sestertius reverse type, so required the least work for the imitators to copy.
Curtis Clay

Offline cliff_marsland

  • Caesar
  • ****
  • Posts: 838
    • My gallery
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2009, 11:44:45 pm »
I have a question about the Agrippa issues (Neptune) - were there provincial mints operating as well?  The non-Rome specimens of this type seem to be floating about.

Caligula imitations or provincial mints seem to be rare.  I've never seen one besides the one I have.

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12152
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2016, 07:13:16 am »


I just reattributed some sold coins in Forum's shop from Rome to Thrace. I suspect the dupondius of Claudius above, which I previously attributed to Rome, is from a provincial mint. What mint?
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

Offline curtislclay

  • Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
  • Procurator Monetae
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 11155
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2016, 10:52:54 am »
Joe,

Definitely provincial not Rome.

Could be the second large Spanish series (not Pobla-Tarraco), or the quite large class of remaining coins, which might be unofficial imitations or official provincial issues produced elsewhere in cruder style.
Curtis Clay

Offline Joe Sermarini

  • Owner, President
  • FORVM STAFF
  • Caesar
  • *****
  • Posts: 12152
  • All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.
    • FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Re: A Nero Claudius Drusus sest. with Claudius as P P struck in Thrace
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2016, 07:31:54 am »
Thanks Curtis.
Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS

 

All coins are guaranteed for eternity