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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderator: AlexB)  |  Topic: Gold Ducats of Chios and Venish - how to recognise them 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Gold Ducats of Chios and Venish - how to recognise them  (Read 2249 times)
Elefinoras
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« on: October 15, 2009, 01:58:17 am »

The circulation of the Venetian gold ducats was not able to satisfy the market at the 15 century. As a result of that many rulers produce their own coins very similar to the Venetian one. A very good example is the gold Ducat of the Greek island Chios.

This topic has to do with the difference between those two coins and how the eye of collector will be able to recognise them. Which one is the Venetian one and which is the Chios one?

Are there any clear signs which can actually help us to tell the difference?

Here is a gold ducat of Chios:


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chassid-80
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« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2009, 03:07:27 pm »

Dear Elefinoras, your post is very interesting!

Infact it allow of starting an interesting discussion on the "imitation" and the "counterfeiting" of the ancient coins, at the time of their circulation. So here i don't want speak about the modern fake coins for the collectors.

As you write in your post, the pic is of Chios gold ducat, struck after the Antonio Venier (1382 - 1400) venetian ducat. There are many signs that indicate that this isn't a Venice mint ducat: the not correct epigraphy of the legends (ex. ANTO VENRIO and not ANTO VENERIO; S N VENETO and not S M VENETVS (St. Mark of Venice); somes reversed N; as the approximate style of the figures.

Do you know the weight of this coin? The venetian ducat is grams. 3.5.

Then i want now ask you:
what are the differences between a contemporary imitation and a contemporary counterfeiting of a coin?

At soon dear friends, Anto - Naples (Italy).
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Elefinoras
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2009, 05:37:49 am »

Hello.

Thank you for your answer.

Are you saying that the coin of Chios at the picture is a fake?

or u just try to say that it just obvious that the coin in the picture its not a Venetian one, but something else?

As far I know, the gold ducats of Chios were made very similar to the Venetians and they were designed in order to imitate them, but not to be the same. They were used only in Chios and not internationally.

No I don’t know the weight.



Then i want now ask you:
what are the differences between a contemporary imitation and a contemporary counterfeiting of a coin?
Sorry, u are using numismatic terms in English and I can’t really understand what u are asking. I do know English, but not, special terms like <<contemporary imitation and a contemporary counterfeiting>>
Can you please explain?


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Paleologo
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2009, 07:58:38 am »

I would call "imitation" a coin struck following the model of another coin, at the same weight and finesse, with identical or very similar pictures and script. The goal of these coins was not to deceive, but to gain acceptance on the "market" by exploiting similarity with other well-known and well-valued pieces, thus providing a profit to the minting authority, but not necessarily an illegal one. This was definitely common practice in the Middle Ages and the Venetian ducat was certainly among the most imitated currencies, not only in the Eastern Mediterranean but also, for instance, in Rome.

I would call "contemporary counterfeit" a coin struck as above, but with reduced weight and/or finesse, compared to the original type. The goal of these coins was definitely to deceive, i.e. to gain an illegal profit, again by exploiting similarity with other well-known and well-valued pieces, but this time spending the currency at a face value higher than it real value ("intrinsic" value, i.e. its precious metal content). This practice became extremely common in the late Middle Ages down to the 17th c., in many small feudal mints of Northern and Central Italy for example.

Of course, the border between the two cases is very blurred. As far as I know, your Chios ducat is considered an imitation, at least in its early stages, as its weight and finesse were identical or very similar to the prototye.

Hope this helps  Smiley
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Elefinoras
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2009, 08:26:09 am »

Of course its helps and I want to thank you for all these information.
For a moment I thought that my ducat was a fake. At the moment my collection is too far away and I can’t really tell about the weight. I will be able to tell in one month.
But even If we had a coin of the second category you mention above, I am sure that it could be something high collectable. A fake coin made by people lived 400 years ago it’s not a small thing. However I can’t say the same about the price of it. Because it is certain that a fake coin will be much cheaper than an original one.

As far the signs which can help a collector to say the difference between the Venice and Chios ducats, the first answer in this topic it’s really helpful.
However, is there anything else that we need to know about?
 
Thank you...
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Paleologo
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2009, 10:23:46 am »

But even If we had a coin of the second category you mention above, I am sure that it could be something high collectable.

Yes, definitely.

Because it is certain that a fake coin will be much cheaper than an original one.

In general yes, but don't take it for granted. I know some counterfeits of common billon Italian coins from the 15th-17th c., struck in a very poor alloy or even in pure copper by small mints, that are much more expensive than their prototypes, because of their rarity.

Unfortunately, I'm no expert in this specific coinage so I can't help you further. However, this paper could be interesting for you:

The Venetian Gold Ducat and its Imitations, by Herbert E. Ives, edited and annotated by Philip Grierson.
American Numismatic Society, Notes & Monographs #128, New York 1954, 37p. illus., 16 plates. 17 cm

Regards, P.  Smiley
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Medieval, Islamic and Crusader Coins (Moderator: AlexB)  |  Topic: Gold Ducats of Chios and Venish - how to recognise them « previous next »
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