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Author Topic: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...  (Read 62230 times)

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zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2009, 02:15:48 pm »
Cornuficius won Caesar's favour in 48 BC by recovering Illyricum. Caesar, as a reward, made him Praetor and had him elected to the College of Augurs.

Praetor...An annually elected magistrate of the ancient Roman Republic, ranking below but having approximately the same functions as a consul.... from 337 BC, the position was also open to plebeians...

I guess according to this delicate Roman hierarchy and flexible standardization...

Pontius Pilate was an eligible candidate for the college of  Augurs by being solely a Roman Governor Of Judea and from Plebeian origins....

Pontius Pilate...who are you ?



Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2009, 09:43:34 pm »

So Steve...you are saying that the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was not an eligible candidate for the cursus honorum (probably around  30 AD), and his link to  Pontius Aquila (died 43 BC) - a tribune of the plebs- is historically controversial.

Any equestrian was in principal eligible for the cursus, but had certainly not embarked on it as the first magistracy, the quaestorship, carried with it membership to the Senate since the time of Sulla at least.

I don't think there is any evidence at all to comment on any link between Pilate and Aquila.   Even if there was, being a relative to one of Caesar's assassins wasn't something to make a noise about under the Principate.

Frankly speaking I do not see any reason to overrule such a historical probability, since The cursus honorum began with ten years of military duty in the Roman cavalry (the equites) .... The ten years of service were intended to be mandatory in order to qualify an Important Plebeian  like Pontius Pilate for this  prestigious political  post.
Firstly, what you speak of with the equites = Roman cavalry was several centuries out of date.  It is true that the origins of the equestrian order was those who could afford to outfit themselves as cavalryman, but it's anachronistic to apply that to the late Republic.  And from under Augustus onwards the previous age and service qualifications did not apply - I think the age requirement for the Quaestorship had gone down from 30 (+ 10 campaigns) to 20, an age where it would have been impossible to mount up any serious record of military service.

None of this is particularly relevant to Pilate holding the prefecture, as we know the post was open only to equestrians.  Therefore although we cannot rule out Pilate becoming a senator at a later date, we can rule out his being one before his tenure in Judaea had expired, and we can almost certainly rule out the idea that he was an augur.  Also the tradition os using symbols relevant to the official responsible for issuing a coin had died out by about 15 BC - and the coins ascribed to Pilate's prefecture don't even mention his name.  (Actually I am not even sure on what basis these coins are attributed to Pilate, I'll have to check what RPC says on that when I have the chance).

The lituus on these coins can not be considered evidence that he was an augur

A Roman perfect for Judea... surely  was a "somebody" !
Compared to your average man in the street, yes.  Compared to an aristocrat like Antony, or for that matter the top senators under Tiberius, absolutely not.

Steve

Offline curtislclay

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2009, 10:30:12 pm »
The coins of the procurators name in their legends just the emperor and his regnal year. They are assigned to particular procurators on the basis of the dates, since we know from Josephus the dates of office of the successive procurators.

It has always seemed to me very odd that these coins are classified primarily by procurator, whose names are totally absent from the coins, rather than simply by the emperor, whose names they bear!

RPC, to its credit, lists the coins by emperor, adding the procurators' names in parentheses.

I agree with Steve that augurs under the empire were always distinguished senators, of course including the emperor himself and the Caesar if there was one. Pontius Pilate cannot have been an augur. Unfortunately I don't have access to the books and encyclopedias which would state exactly how we know these facts. I seem to recall a book appearing maybe five or ten years ago on the major priestly colleges and their members during the early empire.
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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2009, 05:45:02 pm »
what's your opinion on the account in Josephus :

After Passover in 44, Agrippa went to Caesarea, where he had games performed in honor of Claudius. In the midst of his elation Agrippa saw an owl perched over his head. During his imprisonment by Tiberius a similar omen had been interpreted as portending his speedy release, with the warning that should he behold the same sight again, he would die within five days. He was immediately smitten with violent pains, scolded his friends for flattering him and accepted his imminent death....

__________

who do you think interpreted the omen of the owl to Agrippa ?

Claudius?....his senates?...or some minor augur priests in his proximity ?

Regards....


Josephus only mantions the owl twice in his entire surviving opus, in these two incidents in his accounts of Agrippa I. Agrippa was brought up in Rome, befriended Caligula and Claudius, helped Claudius be confirmed as emperor, and was made King of the Jews, as well as being given consular rank. He greatly strengthened the fortifications around Jerusalem, and may possibly have been planning a rebellion when he died suddenly. Josephus is writing for Romans, and describes an omen which is distinctly Roman. They used birds for divination, the Jews didn't. Either Agrippa was throughly Romanised, or Josephus tailored the story to his audience. Take your pick, but I suspect the former. If he was making up stories like this, he'd surely have used them in regard to other Jews as well, who didn't happen to have been brought up in Rome!

There certainly wouldn't have been augurs in Judea, as they were an aristocratic Roman priesthood. If Agrippa had acquired the Roman superstition about owls, most likely he interpreted it for himself, after the original prophecy was made - or imagined - in Rome. An imported Roman soothsayer wouldn't have been particularly acceptable to strict Jews.
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zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2009, 06:20:58 pm »
Agrippa and the rest of the Herodian family were definitely  Romanised Jews...
and the influence of Romanised omen can be understood within the proximity of Caesarea rather than in the proximity of Judea or (Jerusalem)...

I wonder if the Herodians were "strict" Jews deep down inside...

______________________________________

M. Antonius had just become tribune (l0th December, B.C. 50), but he had been quaestor in Gaul in B.C. 52, and seems to have been in high favour with Caesar, who had been exerting himself to get him elected augur

source: Cicero, Epistulae ad Brutum

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2009, 12:53:12 pm »
Quote
Josephus only mantions the owl twice in his entire surviving opus, in these two incidents in his accounts of Agrippa I. Agrippa was brought up in Rome, befriended Caligula and Claudius, helped Claudius be confirmed as emperor, and was made King of the Jews, as well as being given consular rank. He greatly strengthened the fortifications around Jerusalem, and may possibly have been planning a rebellion when he died suddenly. Josephus is writing for Romans, and describes an omen which is distinctly Roman. They used birds for divination, the Jews didn't. Either Agrippa was throughly Romanised, or Josephus tailored the story to his audience.

Marcus Licinius Crassus

The Battle of Carrhae, fought in 53 BC near the town of Carrhae(Harran), was a major battle between the Parthian Empire and the Roman Republic. A Roman invasion force led by Marcus Licinius Crassus was decisively crushed by the Parthian Spahbod Surena. It was the first of many battles between the Roman and Persian empires, and one of the most crushing defeats in Roman history.
it was said that the Roman army was warned of impending disaster by an Owl before its defeat .
At that time of history Augur priests  played  an essential role in roman and roman oriented societies...

Agrippa's event happened  in a Romanised society in Caesarea.. a multicultural society that  appreciated ancient form of  mysticism ..If the the owl omen  was left unexplained  would have been only worsen the situation for Agrippa and will only deteriorate his inner peace...

this is breed of superstitious kings is clearly understood within their milieus ....I mean in the middle of a complex Hellenistic  culture that did not leave any place for scientific reasoning to deal with  "the unexplained" ...this was thew case among the majority.

The Roman Stoic Philosopher Seneca (4 BC – AD 65) said in Natural Questions (2.32.20):

Whereas we believe lightning to be released as a result of the collision of clouds,They believe that clouds collide so as to release lightning: for,as they attribute all to the deity,they are led to believe not that things have a meaning in so far as they occur,but rather they occur because they must have a meaning.

Seneca was the tutor and later advisor to emperor Nero...eventually this great philosopher  was executed by him!

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2009, 09:08:43 pm »
Agrippa and the rest of the Herodian family were definitely  Romanised Jews...
and the influence of Romanised omen can be understood within the proximity of Caesarea rather than in the proximity of Judea or (Jerusalem)...

I wonder if the Herodians were "strict" Jews deep down inside...




After examining the original text again, it seems that  Josephus identified Agrippa's " soothsayer" as a "foreigner" ...a German prisoner

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm

Now Agrippa stood in his bonds before the royal palace, and leaned on a certain tree for grief, with many others,. who were in bonds also; and as a certain bird sat upon the tree on which Agrippa leaned, (the Romans call this bird bubo,) [an owl,]

 one of those that were bound, a German by nation, saw him, and asked a soldier who that man in purple was; and when he was informed that his name was Agrippa, and that he was by nation a Jew, and one of the principal men of that nation, he asked leave of the soldier to whom he was bound,
to let him come nearer to him, to speak with him; for that he had a mind to inquire of him about some things relating to his country; which liberty, when he had obtained, and as he stood near him, he said thus to him by an interpreter.......

_____________
I really don't know how much Agrippa was influence by The Battle of Carrhae "omen"...which was 100 years earlier...
anyway... the Roman reference or "mood" is indeniable for both cases.

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2009, 06:38:15 am »
Cicero-an Augur himself- stated clearly as quoted above that Roman  Augur only  chose carefully certain birds species in their auspecies.

Quote
Now let us examine augury as practised among foreign nations, whose methods are not so artificial as they are superstitious. They employ almost all kinds of birds, we only a few; they regard some signs as favourable, we, others


Cecero mentioned several  birds  species used specifically in Augur auspises,
among them he mentioned the common raven:




Quote
and why was the power granted to some birds to give a favourable omen when on the left side and to others when on the right?


Quote
'Why does an augur think it a favourable omen when a raven flies to the right, or a crow to the left?'


Cecero mentioned also "sacred" poultry being used in Augur auspises :


Quote
the sacred chickens in eating the dough pellets

We have noticed  Augustus was  depicted in the altar of the Lares as the Highest August priest feeding the sacred chickens.





Marcus Terentius Varro (116 BC – 27 BC), another Roman scholar and writer.
mentioned in his work (De Re Rustica) several other birds species:

Quote
During the election of aediles, Quintus Axius, the senator, a member of my tribe, and I, after casting our ballots, wished, though the sun was hot, to be on hand to escort the candidate whom we were supporting when he returned home. Axius remarked to me: "While the votes are being sorted, shall we enjoy the shade of the Villa Publica,6 instead of building us one out of the half-plank of our own candidate?" "Well," I replied, "I think that the proverb is correct, 'bad advice is worst for the adviser,'8 and also that good advice should be considered good both for the adviser and the advised. 2 So we go our way and come to the Villa. There we find Appius Claudius, the augur,9 sitting on a bench so that he might be on hand for consultation, if need should arise. There were sitting at his left Cornelius Merula ('Blackbird'), member of a consular family, and Fircellius Pavo ('Peacock'), of Reate; and on his right Minucius Pica ('Magpie') and Marcus Petronius Passer ('Sparrow'). When we came up to him, Axius said to Appius, with a smile: "Will you let us come into your aviary, where you are sitting among the birds?"  "With pleasure," he replied, "and especially you; I still 'bring up' those hospitable birds which you set before me a few days ago in your villa at Reate




The Common Blackbird, Turdus merula




The Peafowl:




The Magpie:



The Italian  Sparrow:








zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2009, 12:27:41 pm »
Quote
as we know the post was open only to equestrians.  Therefore although we cannot rule out Pilate becoming a senator at a later date, we can rule out his being one before his tenure in Judaea had expired, and we can almost certainly rule out the idea that he was an augur

Why we should we rule out such a historical possibility?
even Cecero-an Augur himself- said private citizen were eligible at his time for  Augurate!...

he didn't even mentioned any minimum requirements -wether Senatorial or else- for this religious post...


I will use his quote from his work (On Divination) as a proof:

As a general rule among the ancients the men who ruled the state had control likewise of augury, for they considered divining, as well as wisdom, becoming to a king. Proof of this is afforded by our State wherein the kings were augurs; and, later, private citizens endowed with the same priestly office ruled the republic by the authority of religion.

Well...even the wikipedia mentioned in the  Equestrian public careers section that
equestrians  were eligible to Augur priesthood post before the Senate not after it :


In public service, equites equo publico had their own version of the senatorial cursus honorum, or conventional career path, which typically combined military and administrative posts. After an initial period of a few years in local government in their home regions as administrators (aediles, duumviri) or priests (augures), equites were required to serve as military officers for about 10 years before they would be appointed to senior administrative or military posts


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrian_(Roman)


Quote
Compared to your average man in the street

Steve...Don't you think if we compare The Roman Governor Pontius Pilate to an average Galilean peasant that makes 1 Roman Dinarius a day is an oversimplification from the historical point of view of comparisions ?

Let us check The Augustan equestrian order  in (Principate era)
 
Let us see the differentiation between  the senatorial order and  equestrian order:

1.Augustus for the first time set a minimum property requirement for admission to the Senate (of 250,000 denarii, two and a half times the 100,000 denarii that he set for admission to the equestrian order


well...this is a fair historical comparision between the two elite orders of Roman society!


Quote
Also the tradition os using symbols relevant to the official responsible for issuing a coin had died out by about 15 BC - and the coins ascribed to Pilate's prefecture don't even mention his name

well...Pontius Pilate was the Roman Governor in Judea for a relatively long period of time (10 years) ..wether we like it or not!

and the Lituus  symbolwas his unique trademark compared to the rest of the Roman Procurators
wether we like it or not!....

I even suspect that Pontius Pilate played a "religious" role  in Armilustrium festival held in Jerusalem ...this festival is usually held in to honor  Mars, the god of war, celebrated on October 19th.

On this day the weapons  and sheilds of the soldiers were ritually purified and stored for winter
and I suspect that the event mentioned  by  Philo of Alexandria in Philo's Legatio ad Gaium, an incident in which Pilate set up gilded shields in Jerusalem was indeed an Armilustrium ceremony

I am not sure if that ceremony required the presence of an augur and a pontifex to hold it???

Offline curtislclay

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2009, 12:57:22 pm »
You quoted from Wikipedia:

"After an initial period of a few years in local government in their home regions as administrators (aediles, duumviri) or priests (augures), equites were required to serve as military officers for about 10 years before they would be appointed to senior administrative or military posts."

No one denies that equestrians could hold priestly offices IN THEIR HOME TOWNS, as Wikipedia says.

What we are denying is that Pilate could have been a member of the college of augurs AT ROME, the membership of which was restricted to distinguished senators and the emperor and his heir.

If you like, you may propose that the lituus on Pilate's coin refers to the augurate that he putatively held IN HIS LOCAL TOWN. That seems a very unlikely explanation of the type, but at least it is not factually impossible!
Curtis Clay

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2009, 01:28:34 pm »
You quoted from Wikipedia:

"After an initial period of a few years in local government in their home regions as administrators (aediles, duumviri) or priests (augures), equites were required to serve as military officers for about 10 years before they would be appointed to senior administrative or military posts."

No one denies that equestrians could hold priestly offices IN THEIR HOME TOWNS, as Wikipedia says.

What we are denying is that Pilate could have been a member of the college of augurs AT ROME, the membership of which was restricted to distinguished senators and the emperor and his heir.

If you like, you may propose that the lituus on Pilate's coin refers to the augurate that he putatively held IN HIS LOCAL TOWN. That seems a very unlikely explanation of the type, but at least it is not factually impossible!

I assume that  equites once  they get their  senatorial cursus honorum they will be complete legitimate Augurs in any place on earth...

Regards...

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2009, 06:24:06 pm »
Only if they actually joined the College of Augurs. I wonder what proportion of them served as priests rather than as administrators.
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Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2009, 08:20:36 pm »
Quote
Compared to your average man in the street

Steve...Don't you think if we compare The Roman Governor Pontius Pilate to an average Galilean peasant that makes 1 Roman Dinarius a day is an oversimplification from the historical point of view of comparisions ?
Indeed I do, but I was comparing him to high aristocracy.  Quoting me out of context is pretty poor form.


Let us check The Augustan equestrian order  in (Principate era)
 
Let us see the differentiation between  the senatorial order and  equestrian order:

1.Augustus for the first time set a minimum property requirement for admission to the Senate (of 250,000 denarii, two and a half times the 100,000 denarii that he set for admission to the equestrian order


well...this is a fair historical comparision between the two elite orders of Roman society!
The separation is not that simple.  There were men who satisfied the property qualifications for the Senate who were not senators, often because they were not willing to go by the other rules, such as not being active in business.  A great example being Atticus.


well...Pontius Pilate was the Roman Governor in Judea for a relatively long period of time (10 years) ..wether we like it or not!

and the Lituus  symbolwas his unique trademark compared to the rest of the Roman Procurators
wether we like it or not!....
It's not a matter of liking it.  It's a matter of interpreting the design in the context of all the other coinage of the time, along with what we know from other sources of information.   A prefect of Judaea (note not a governor, the governor was that of Syria) would not have been a good candidate for the augurate, and would be very unlikely to place a personal symbol on the coinage.

I even suspect that Pontius Pilate played a "religious" role  in Armilustrium festival held in Jerusalem ...this festival is usually held in to honor  Mars, the god of war, celebrated on October 19th.

On this day the weapons  and sheilds of the soldiers were ritually purified and stored for winter
and I suspect that the event mentioned  by  Philo of Alexandria in Philo's Legatio ad Gaium, an incident in which Pilate set up gilded shields in Jerusalem was indeed an Armilustrium ceremony

I am not sure if that ceremony required the presence of an augur and a pontifex to hold it???
It seems extremely unlikely that any ceremony that did not take place at Rome herself required either.

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2009, 01:02:01 pm »
Only if they actually joined the College of Augurs. I wonder what proportion of them served as priests rather than as administrators.


There was no doubt that Pontius Pilate was a good  and successful Roman Governor for at least ten years in Judea .He was responsible for taxation and financial management in Judea, Perea and Possibly Galilee .
 He  minted coins  and negotiate with wealthy Religious institutions such as the Priests of Jerusalem temple and most probably with  private money-lenders that could advance money from their trade. Herod Antipas was . He may even supervised Antipas’ large-scale building projects throughout the province. Whether In  Judea or Galilee Including  Sepphoris and   Tiberias on the western shore of the Sea of Galilee and  Caesaria  Maritima on the shore of the Mediterranean sea..

 He would most probably  also needed to keep the peace between Antipas and the Nabataean King Arethas.
Aside from these financial duties, Pontius Pilate  was the province's chief judge. He had the sole right to impose capital punishment, and capital cases were normally tried before him.

To appeal a Pilate's decision necessitated travelling to Rome and presenting one's case before either the Praetor Urbanus, or even  Tiberius himself, an expensive, and thus rare, process.
An appeal was unlikely to succeed anyway, as a governor wouldn’t generally take the chance of convicting someone contrary to the Emperor's wishes.
Pilate as a Roman governor was also supposed to travel across his province to administer justice in the major towns including those under Antipas reign where his attention was required.
Finally, and most importantly, he commanded the Roman military forces within his province.
 As a part of his standing orders, Pontius Pilate had the authority to use his legions to stamp out organized criminal gangs or Local rebels in the area without need for Tiberius or Senate's approval. he had the right to sentence anyone to death, even a Roman citizen in his province, was a subject to immediate execution.
In these outposts of empire, Pilate had to be able to do whatever he thought was necessary for the good of Rome and Tiberius.
Literally Pilate was the most powerful man in eastern Mediterranean region.


On the other hand the  Synoptic  Gospels  showed  somehow   a  softer nature of Pontius Pilate...something slightly different  from the usual version provided by early historians.I mean  Josephus and Philo’s stereotyped insensitive anti-Semitic  ruthless Roman procurator.
In  Synoptic  Gospels we can discover his  wise  and logical side.He was  good sign reader and interpreter, this would probably had  came from his spiritual experience as a potential  Roman  Augur  priviously:

Matthew 27:18 (New International Version)
18For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him

Matthew 27:24
 24When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

Mark 15:4-5
4So again Pilate asked him, "Aren't you going to answer? See how many things they are accusing you of."
5But Jesus still made no reply, and Pilate was amazed

Mark 15:14
 14"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate.
      But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"


Luke 23:2
2And they began to accuse him, saying, "We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ,[a] a king."



Luke 23:4
 4Then Pilate announced to the chief priests and the crowd, "I find no basis for a charge against this man."


zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2009, 01:13:01 pm »
Quote
A prefect of Judaea (note not a governor, the governor was that of Syria) would not have been a good candidate for the augurate, and would be very unlikely to place a personal symbol on the coinage.

Pontius Pilate was outranked only by  legatus (legate) who should be  a general in the Roman army,  Being of senatorial rank, his immediate superior was the dux, and he outranked all military tribunes.

Both Pontius Pilate and  Syria province Legatus are good potential candidate for the Religious Post.

Lucius Aelius Lamia was consul in the year 3 AD and afterwards served as governor of Germania, Pannonia and Africa. In 22 AD he was appointed imperial legate to Syria by Tiberius but was detained in Rome and never traveled to Syria in person. In the last year of his life, 33 AD, he served as praefectus urbi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Aelius_Lamia_(consul_3)

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2009, 05:37:19 pm »
He would most probably  also needed to keep the peace between Antipas and the Nabataean King Arethas.

If so, he was remarkably unsuccessful!

As a part of his standing orders, Pontius Pilate had the authority to use his legions to stamp out organized criminal gangs or Local rebels in the area without need for Tiberius or Senate's approval.

What legions? He had a few hundred auxiliaries for policing duties, but the only guy around with legions under his command was the Syrian Legate. In the event of serious trouble, the governor could only withdraw, as Gessius Florus did in 66, and refer the matter to higher authority.

Judea may have been a small sub-province, but I think 'governor' is probably as good a translation of 'praefectus' or 'procurator' as we're going to get.
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zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2009, 07:44:16 pm »
He would most probably  also needed to keep the peace between Antipas and the Nabataean King Arethas.

If so, he was remarkably unsuccessful!



Well I guess Pontius Pilate  was  successful during his ten years of administration between
( AD 26–36),especially in keeping the peace between the two Roman's allies in good condition ,Eventhough I do assume that  there was something hidden between Pilate and Antipas,that you may find a clearer link for that in Luke's Gospel

Luke 23:12 (New International Version)
12That day Herod and Pilate became friends—before this they had been enemies.

But The  political failure and the devastating defeat of Antipas' army should be attributed to

Lucius Vitellius Veteris (the Elder) Governor of Syria 36AD, He deposed Pontius Pilate in 36 AD after complains from the people in Samaria.

and according to Josephus he mentioned  that Vitellius was unwilling to cooperate with the tetrarch because of a grudge he bore from an earlier incident.

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #67 on: October 15, 2009, 08:02:25 pm »


What legions? He had a few hundred auxiliaries for policing duties, but the only guy around with legions under his command was the Syrian Legate. In the event of serious trouble, the governor could only withdraw, as Gessius Florus did in 66, and refer the matter to higher authority.

Judea may have been a small sub-province, but I think 'governor' is probably as good a translation of 'praefectus' or 'procurator' as we're going to get.

Robert  it was a different period of time , were you could not compare neither Nero to Tiberius
nor Pilate to Florus...

at this later period  of Judean history ,the frequency of changing Roman Procurators became shorter and the stupidity of Nero became  bolder, and this indicator did gave a clear signal for the rebels that there was  a defect or weakness in the system ..and I guess they supposed that it was  the right moment  in history to make their move.

On the other hand at Tiberius-Pilate time ,rebels were much weaker and the Syrian Legate Lucius Aelius Lamia was not a real  fighter on ground between the Legions and troops.

and in case of any serious trouble it would take Pilate only several hours to contact the Syrian Legions in Raphana,But it may take him several days to contact Lamia in Rome.

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2009, 01:51:02 pm »
They weren't 'his' legions though, were they? Wherever they were stationed, they were under the control of the Syrian legate. Pilate himself, like the others, lacked the resources to deal with major trouble himself.

The problems between Antipas and Aretas were a long time brewing, and war broke out in 37, not long afte Pilate lost his job. So you can't exonerate him altogether.
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zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2009, 06:47:40 pm »
They weren't 'his' legions though, were they? Wherever they were stationed, they were under the control of the Syrian legate. Pilate himself, like the others, lacked the resources to deal with major trouble himself.


Legio (V Macedonica) and Legio (VIII Gallica)  were stationed in the Bekaa Valley
 -most probably- and were controled directly By Legate Lamia

Trans-jordan Raphana was the base camp  for Legio (III Gallica) and Legio (XII Fulminata),and I assume  that they were controlled by Pontius Pilate....

I Guess we need a third decisive opinion of an expert in Roman army here...

I really don't know why you prefer to describe Pilate as an Impotent Roman senior officer.

Luke 13:1 gave a different perspective than yours  and  same thing applies for early historians like  Josephus.




The problems between Antipas and Aretas were a long time brewing, and war broke out in 37, not long afte Pilate lost his job. So you can't exonerate him altogether.

I don't think that Pilate was  "Responsible" for Antipas' romantic fantasies.

Frankly speaking I can not say that marriage consuling was among his administrative duties

:)


Regards...

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2009, 03:32:29 pm »
Of course it wasn't, but keeping the peace was, and the problem was already brewing before he left office. Pilate was responsible for the province of Judea, which covered the former Judea and Samaria, which had been ruled by Archelaus until he was banished. If you care to consult an atlas, you'll find that those territories include neither Transjordan nor the Bekaa.

Pilate's duties were essentially tax collection and policing. I think I said before that serious military action was the responsibility of the Syrian legate. We do have an example, though you don't want to consider it. Gessius Florus withdrew from his province - the only alternative would have been to stand a siege in the Fortress Antonia - and Cestius Gallus attempted to intervene, with a notable lack of success.
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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2009, 05:55:47 pm »
Catholic scholars, and most bishops, as intelligent people, have no fear of acknowledging their debt to the past, nor even of all kinds of speculations! Most of the things that so titillate neo-pagans etc. as if it were their brand-new discovery, have been known and discussed in incredible detail by Catholic scholars long long ago. At any rate, the theory that the crozier may derive from the lituus is freely acknowledged by the Catholic Encyclopedia, s.v. Crosier; the paragraph also calls the earliest crozier a pedum.

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2009, 07:13:51 pm »
Bravo, Bill Thayer!  Just because the Catholic church doesn't publish everything on, say, devotional cards doesn't mean they don't 'handle' the wonderful heritage from antiquity.  I'm not a Roman Catholic myself, but from reading I know that the best work on all these questions is usually theirs.
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