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Author Topic: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...  (Read 62167 times)

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zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2009, 06:12:30 pm »
Augur Priests interpreting the will of the gods by studying the flight of the birds as shown in Etruscan tombs.

Early Roman king Numa Pompilius shown as Augur priest holding  (Lituus) and standing before an altar at which he is about to sacrifice a goat as depicted on Pomponius Molo coin (97 BC)







zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2009, 06:38:55 pm »
Roman art showing Augur priests animal sacrifice ceremonies:


zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2009, 06:47:24 pm »
sacrificial tools often depicted on Roman coins:

TOP IMAGE: sacrificial implements: patera, simpulum, and urceus.

BOTTOM IMAGE: sacrificial implements: mantele, accera, and lituus

http://pompeii.virginia.edu/sgamap.html

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2009, 06:50:57 pm »
Zeid, are you trying to make a particular point with these images?  Or just illustrating the theme?

Steve

P.S.
I think the top figure in the sacrifice scene is a Pontifex. Where is that from, by the way?

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2009, 07:09:41 pm »
Steve ...I am just illustrating the general  theme...

But I'll come back to Pontius Pilate period later

 concerning the sacrifice scene he can be a Pontifex

But I thought that the guy behind the priest is holding a Lituus ???...

I will quote the original source:

The relief on the southwestern side represents another important ancestor of Augustus with the image of Aeneas Sacrificing. He is shown making an offering to the penates, or the household gods. Aeneas is accompanied by his son Julus-Ascanius. The implications of this panel for Augustus are very clear. Augustus would have wanted to be linked to his legendary ancestor Aeneas....

https://tinyurl.com/nyujho

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2009, 07:19:33 pm »
Sorry I was referring to the top picture, on what looks like a sarcophagus.

But in the 2nd one, it is surely too tall and hefty to be a lituus.

Steve

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2009, 08:07:19 pm »
Steve...What is so different with this picture?

it could be easily a scene from The suovetaurilia  ... one of the most sacred and traditional rites of Roman religion....

 the sacrifice of a pig (sus), a ram (ovis) and a bull (taurus) to the deity Mars to bless and purify land ...

Stewart Perowne mentioned in Roman Mythology- P.27-

that in Suovertaurilia an emperor is seen offering it

and we both agreed that the emperor was usually the Highest  Augur priest...

so what make this scene different from the suovetaurilia ?




Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2009, 08:28:39 pm »
Someone who knows more may correct me, but my understanding is that the role of an augur was simply to interpret omens, be it the flight of birds or examination of entrails.  A pontifex would officiate at a sacrifice.

I'm not familiar with the last coin you posted, and after a pretty brief look can't find any reference to it.  IOM would, I'd have thought, stand for Jupiter Optimus Maximus, but why he'd hold a lituus I couldn't explain.  I'm really not sure what to make of it.  It would appear to be some sort of imitation? If so you couldn't read much into the reverse at all.

Steve

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2009, 08:51:38 pm »
Jochen...

I can hypothesize that  a Roman  senatorial rank is not a must for an augur priest .

By the way Jochen...

 what's your opinion on the account in Josephus :

After Passover in 44, Agrippa went to Caesarea, where he had games performed in honor of Claudius. In the midst of his elation Agrippa saw an owl perched over his head. During his imprisonment by Tiberius a similar omen had been interpreted as portending his speedy release, with the warning that should he behold the same sight again, he would die within five days. He was immediately smitten with violent pains, scolded his friends for flattering him and accepted his imminent death....

__________

who do you think interpreted the omen of the owl to Agrippa ?

Claudius?....his senates?...or some minor augur priests in his proximity ?

Regards....

Offline Akropolis

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2009, 10:30:58 pm »
On the Chi - Rho,

Σ - λ  vs.  Α - Ω?

New to me. Any idea what it means?
peteB





Offline Bamba123

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2009, 12:36:06 am »
I had googled to find a image (good one) and found a particular group that this was thier symbol.  This is what they wrote about it- "It comprises the symbol of the Savior's Name, the two Greek initial letters “Chi” or “X” intersecting “Rho” or “P” at the center indicating the name “Christos”. “Rho” is formed in a shape of a shepherd staff. At the side of the Greek symbol of “Christos” are found the Greek letters “Sigma” or and “Lambda” or to signify “Salt” and “Light” respectively."
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Offline quisquam

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2009, 01:39:23 am »
Might it be Neptune with acrostolium?

Stefan

Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2009, 02:42:15 am »
I think quisquam's suggestion is more likely to be the kind of thing shown, rather  than that of an augur.  The intrepretation of omens was much more complicated than the flight of birds or the state of a sacrificial subject's liver, and included all kinds of natural phenomena and prodigies (the direction from which thunder was heard as a minor example, cf. Christopher Morley's book "Thunder on the Left").  All of this was taken seriously, and involved a lot of study and training, probably years.  George S.
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zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2009, 07:58:49 am »
Stefan...we have 1 thing in common  and 3 main differences between the 2 cases:

the common thing:

1-Neptune and this Augur both are depicted as naked males on Roman coins..

Differences:

1-Neptune usually is depicted standing with right foot set on rock or a globe, right knee bent...
in this coin he is not.

2-Neptune Methological Staff is the three branched trident..the famous three-pronged spear
here he is not depicted with it.

3-Acrostolium vs Lituus in Tiberius coin ???

I will go for a clear Roman Lituus...Kindly compare

Regards....


zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2009, 01:17:02 pm »
Someone who knows more may correct me, but my understanding is that the role of an augur was simply to interpret omens, be it the flight of birds or examination of entrails.  A pontifex would officiate at a sacrifice.

I think the role of a Roman Augur priest was wider...he may  practiced some  haruspicy in parallel to  his studies and interpretations of the flight of the birds... by inspecting of the entrails of sacrificed animals, especially the livers of sacrificed sheep and poultry.

the  Numa Pompilius coin suggest such mixed divine  duty.. shown as Augur priest holding  (Lituus) and standing before an altar at which he is about to sacrifice a goat as depicted on Pomponius Molo coin (97 BC)

I just wonder if Tiberius  was deprived in his last days from his Divine title as the highest
Augur priest...wikipedia mentioned some decrease in his popularity to a degree that the Senate refused to vote him divine honors, and mobs filled the streets yelling "To the Tiber with Tiberius!"—in reference to a method of disposal reserved for the corpses of criminals.

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2009, 04:40:10 pm »

I don't believe there was even such an animal as a "minor Augur priest".  The Augurs were a specific college with responsibility for interpreting omens, a highly prestigious official position that could surely be held in this period only by senators - and not just any senators, either, it would have been monopolized by the most powerful of them, the ones whose support the emperor wanted to reward or solidify.  

...........

As I've said above, the Augurate was not some sort of particular cult, it was a highly prestigious institution at the very heart of the Roman religion and state.  It would not have had a total monopoly on interpreting omens, which could be done by practically anybody in any situation.


Well Steve I suppose that hierarchy in Roman priesthood exists,and I think that you are confusing the role of an Augur with that of Pontifex Maximus
(which literally means "Greatest Bridge-maker")  the high priest of the Ancient Roman College of Pontiffs. This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion

While Pontifex Maximus can be the highest Augur priest in Roman world
it was  not a visa versa situation all the way...

 Augur priesthood was not an exclusivity for  the emperor  or his senates..

I will quote Livy just to show that the two streams  co-exist but were not   monopolized copies from each other..or the same people with diffrent names!

According to Livy, King Numa assigned to the first Pontifex Maximus, Numa Marcius, the entire system of religious rites, which system was written out for him and sealed and included the manner and timing of sacrifices, the supervision of religious funds, authority over all public and private religious institutions, instruction of the populace in the celestial and funerary rites including appeasing the dead, and expiation of prodegies. The system is said to have been devised by Numa Pompilius after dedicating an altar on the Aventine Hill to Jupiter Elicius and consulting the gods by auguries

original source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_Maximus

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2009, 04:59:01 pm »
No I am not confusing them, if you conclude so you're misunderstanding me.  Rome had many religious colleges.  The most prestigious of which where the pontifices, whose chief, the Pontifex Maximus, was the head of the state religion.  Next came the augurs. There were various others, such as the decemviri sacris faciundis, in charge of interpreting the Sybilline books.  If my memory is correct both the college of pontifices and augurs numbered 15 men in the late Republic.  There were a lot more than 30 senators, and it's difficult to concieve that the office would have gone outside their number.

I don't see anything in your quote to suggest that the augurate was not restricted to the Senatorial order.

Steve

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2009, 06:10:44 pm »
Steve ..what do you think about these quotes....

Quote
The Pontifex maximus was the leader of the pontifical college (collegium pontificum), the highest priestly order in the Roman state religion.

The pontifical college was made up of the fifteen priests, flamines, each of whom served a single god or goddess. The flamines were also called pontiffs, or pontifices



Quote
The flamines (sing: flamen) were the members of the pontifical college. They were also known as the pontiffs. The leader of the college was the pontifex maximus.

Each of the 15 priests in the college was in charge of the cult of one god. There were three major priests, the flamines maiores, who had to be patrician:

Flamen Dialis (Jupiter)
Flamen Martialis (Mars)
Flamen Quirinalis (Quirinus)
The minor priests, the flamines minores, were twelve and they could be plebeians:

Flamen Carmentalis (Carmentis)
Flamen Cerialis (Ceres)
Flamen Falacer (Falacer)
Flamen Floralis (Flora)
Flamen Furrinalis (Furrina)
Flamen Palatualis (Palatua)
Flamen Pomonalis (Pomona)
Flamen Portunalis (Portunus)
Flamen Volcanalis (Vulcan)
Flamen Volturnalis (Volturnus)

Source:

http://sights.seindal.dk/sight/1244_collegium_pontificum.html
http://sights.seindal.dk/sight/311_Flamines.html



is it a must that an Augur should be a patrician  too ?

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2009, 09:20:07 pm »

is it a must that an Augur should be a patrician  too ?

Steve... what do you think if we make a fair  historical comparison between

Mark Antony as a Quaestor plebeian Augur (50BC)

and Pontius Pilate as a Governor(perfect) plebeian and potential Augur (probably 30 AD)

Mark Antony:A member of the Antonia gens,an important plebeian

Raised by Caesar's influence to the offices of quaestor, augur, and tribune of the plebeians (50 BC)

Photo: http://andrewmccabe.ancients.info

Pontius Pilate: an important plebeian...a  Roman Governor, Possibly a promagistrate

Knowing that a Stone discovered in a Roman theatre at Caesarea Maritima, the capital of the province of Iudaea, bearing a damaged dedication by Pilate of a Tiberieum.[9] This dedication states that he was [...]ECTVS IUDA[...] (usually read as praefectus iudaeae), that is, prefect/governor of Iudaea


Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2009, 12:12:53 am »
I think the quotes are flat out wrong.  Flamen ≠ Pontifex.  I didn't mention the flamens or the Rex Sacrorum in talking about the priestly colleges because they were offices held by one man only.

In the earliest days in the Republic the distinction between patrician and plebeian was most important.  But in the late Republic, the distinction between patricians and plebeian nobility was a relatively unimportant one.  As I understand it, like most high offices the augurs and pontifices could originally be held only by patricians.  Just like the consulship, for example.  As the constitution developed, men of plebeian origin became eligible for more and more offices, until the only ones still reserved for patricians were special cases like the three major flaminates and the princeps senatus.  On the other hand, patricians could not be tribunes of the plebs - the reason for a very famous case of a patrician - Publius Clodius, giving up his patrician status so he could hold an office which gave a great advantage for one of his political style.

I would compare Antony and Pilate as follows: Antony was a senator from a noble family that was plebeian.  Noble meaning that an ancestors in the patrimonial line held the consulship.  Pilate was a novus homo, a new man, one whose family was a long way down the social ladder.  The office of prefect was, as I understand it, held only by members of the Equestrian order, as was, for example, the governorship of Egypt - a far more important province than Judaea!  And obviously there is simply no comparison between them as to power and repute, Antony was a supremely important man, at one time in control of the entire Roman East, and we have by ancient standards huge amounts of information about him.  Pilate was a relative nobody, and would be virtually unknown if he hadn't been involved in the crucifixion stories of the New Testament.

Antony was high nobility, hence his eligibility to be elected augur.  Pilate was many rungs down the ladder, and very unlikely to have held the post.

Steve

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2009, 06:28:23 am »
Steve...

I really Appreciate what you have said,But I wanted a historical approach
of the 50 BC Mark Antony not  30 BC Mark Antony-The 53 years old  Roman General-

I wanted to Investigate a much younger Mark Antony...Possibly a 33 years old noble plebeian
Raised by Caesar's influence to the offices of quaestor, augur

a Quaestor was an elected official of the Roman Republic who supervised the treasury and financial affairs of the state, its armies and its officers...

During the reforms of Sulla in 81 BC, the minimum age for a quaestorship was set at 30 for patricians and at 32 for plebeians, and election to the quaestorship gave automatic membership in the Senate

What I meant that he gained his access or membership to the Senate at the age of 33 by being a plebeian raised to a Quaestror not by his claimed noble ancestery.

Second thing I was trying to Investigate If The post of  a Roman Governor(Perfect)  superior or Inferior to that of Quaestror ,because I have read that In the provinces with a significant legionary presence-Like Judea- the governor's second-in-command was usually a quaestor, a man elected in Rome and sent to the province to serve a mainly financial role, but who could command the military with the governor's approval....

Anyway... at least we both agreed that an Augur can come from Plebeian class.

Regards

Offline Steve Minnoch

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2009, 07:28:59 am »
Antony came from a noble family and was extremely well connected.  His grandfather was consul, and was so noted for his public speaking that he earned the cognomen Orator and was one of Cicero's idols.  His father was a praetor, and would almost have become consul himself if he hadn't made a complete mess of a campaign on Crete and died not long after.  Uncles on both sides (Lucius Julius Caesar and Gaius Antonius Hybrida) were consular.  The man of the moment, Caesar the future dictator, was a cousin.  He had distinguished himself as a subcommander under Caesar in Gaul.   His step-father P. Cornelius Lentulus Sura had been consul,although he wasn't a connection to hype up too loudly having been executed for his involvement in the conspiracy of Catalina. All these connections would still have been true if he had never gone on to become consul and triumvir. 

I doubt very much that he needed any help from Caesar to secure the quaestorship or tribuneship, even though he served him in both capacities.  With a name and ancestry like his, he couldn't have missed.

Compared to those connections, Pilate was a nobody.

Steve

zeid

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2009, 08:50:06 am »
Compared to those connections,Pilate was a nobody.

Steve

So Steve...you are saying that the Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was not an eligible candidate for the cursus honorum (probably around  30 AD), and his link to  Pontius Aquila (died 43 BC) - a tribune of the plebs- is historically controversial.

Frankly speaking I do not see any reason to overrule such a historical probability, since The cursus honorum began with ten years of military duty in the Roman cavalry (the equites) .... The ten years of service were intended to be mandatory in order to qualify an Important Plebeian  like Pontius Pilate for this  prestigious political  post.

A Roman perfect for Judea... surely  was a "somebody" !

Regards


Offline PeterD

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Re: The Roman ((Lituus ))..a question out of curiosity...
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2009, 12:19:33 pm »
Cornuficius won Caesar's favour in 48 BC by recovering Illyricum. Caesar, as a reward, made him Praetor and had him elected to the College of Augurs. He was also awarded governorship of Cilicia and later, after Caesar's death, Africa Vetus. These moves were all to do with power politics and nothing to do with 'qualifications'.
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