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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Biblical & Judean Coins (Moderators: Salem Alshdaifat, Aarmale)  |  Topic: Tetragrammaton 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Aarmale
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« on: September 29, 2009, 07:10:25 pm »

In the FORVM in this Judean section, there are alot of people who are writing down the tetragrammaton using english letters for pronounciation.  I know some people are a bit cautious about reading it (I know I am, at least Undecided ).  Is it possible, maybe, to cut back on the usage a tad? .  I would really appreceate it. 

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Aarmale
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
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« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2009, 11:24:21 am »

I'll try to remember. I've don't remember writing .... here, though I am pretty shameless about using it, and I may have done. My view is that before the exile, Israel worshipped many gods (whatever the prophetic and Deuteronomic wrath that provoked) so 'God' is anachronistic, and it's better to use his name, as they undoubtedly would have done in practice. The taboo on the use of his name came in later. But I'll be careful.

If you read Hebrew, how do you handle its use in the Tanak?
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Aarmale
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« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2009, 03:15:16 pm »

If you read Hebrew, how do you handle its use in the Tanak?
What do you mean?  I can read the Tanak (Torah (Laws and the New Testament), Nevi'im (Books of the prophets, EG Joshua, Samuel I/II etc.) and Ketuvim, the poestic books, like the Psalms (Tehillim) and the book of Ruth) if thats what your asking.
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
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« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2009, 03:24:00 pm »

Thanks for posting this aarmale,
Being Jewish, I have a traditional opinion regarding the name of G-D.
And I obviously  have strong opinions as to how the name was handled by the ancients.
Its my belief that the  Tetragrammaton or 72 letter name of G-D
was said only in the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur only by the Kohen Gadol (high priest).
There were other ways the common folk referred to  G-D.
Today,in the Torah it is written one way and pronounced "Adonoy",I think the pronunciation
is a contraction so as not to say the name the way it is written.
It can be written the correct way because religious texts and books are considered
Holy and sacred themselves and must be accorded special care.
They can't be handled the same way secular books are.
So I guess the Name of G-D is protected in the book itself.
You also will note that from my youngest days I was also taught to write "G-D"
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« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2009, 02:55:59 pm »

If you read Hebrew, how do you handle its use in the Tanak?
What do you mean?  I can read the Tanak (Torah (Laws and the New Testament), Nevi'im (Books of the prophets, EG Joshua, Samuel I/II etc.) and Ketuvim, the poestic books, like the Psalms (Tehillim) and the book of Ruth) if thats what your asking.

I mean its use of the Tetragammaton. It's Greek for 'four letter word', and refers to the original Hebrew name of God, which you're not supposed to take in vain and all that. I've heard something somewhere about a 72-letter name, can you elucidate, Brian?

I won't write it, but it's used freely in the Tanak (Hebrew Bible), so it has to have been acceptable to use it, especially in pre-exilic times. Without using the specific name, how could they have distinguished him from any other deity? Both the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Mishnah lay down penalties for its use, so someone was still using it in New Testament times or they wouldn't have bothered. Someone at some point decided that it was best not to use the name at all, just in case.

When its written in the Tanak, it's given the vowels of Adonai, meaning 'Lord'. Early English translators didn't understand this, and mistranslated it as 'Jehovah', inventing a new name for God in the process.

Apologies to those who know all this already.
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Brian L
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« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2009, 04:36:47 pm »

I stand corrected Robert,you're correct about the Tetragammaton being the four letter name.
Frankly,I should have known, TETRA - FOUR!

The seventy two letter name I remember learning from childhood
and I guess the memories got a little cloudy.
Actually it is from the Kabbala,I copied this from wikipedia,
it is more involved of course but you get the idea.

"The Shemhamphorasch (a corruption of Hebrew שם המפורש Shem ha-Mephorash) is an epithet for a 216-letter name of G-d derived by medieval kabbalists from the Book of Exodus, by reading the letters of three verses in a specific order. The name is composed of 72 groups of three letters, each of these triplets being the name of an angel or intelligence.
In speech and writing the term Shemhamphorasch is normally substituted for the actual 72-letter name for brevity, and, as with the epithet Tetragrammaton, to avoid desecrating the actual name."

When its written in the Tanak, it's given the vowels of Adonai, meaning 'Lord'. Early English translators didn't understand this, and mistranslated it as 'Jehovah', inventing a new name for God in the process.
   Well said!


 
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Aarmale
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« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2009, 05:25:53 pm »

In the Tankak, I think its OK to G-Ds name.  This is because when you write it and its perpose if for learning, it is acceptable.  For example, if you write a prayer book (Siddur) you can write the Tetragrammation, because it if for a good cause.  In Hebrew to say the name on a normal basis you say "HASHEM" lit. "the name", or use the Hebrew short form 'ה lit H'.
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
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« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2009, 05:58:26 pm »

Not really "for a good cause."
In the Jewish tradition,the Tetragammaton can be written,
I as well as you are aloud to write it,in the proper context of course,however,once written,
what it is written on must be treated respectfully, and never destroyed.
Torah scrolls,Muzzoth and other sacred texts as well as prayer books,bibles
even the notes I took in Hebrew school ,by Jewish law must be buried in a Genizah,
as in The Cairo Genizah.

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« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2009, 10:10:59 am »

Hi,
In the Bible, there's 2 words to name God: The Tetragrammaton HVHY and the word "Elohim". For the historians, the Bible is a compilation of several books. the origin of the Tetragrammaton was probably the Kingdom of Judea and the origin of the word "Elohim" was probably the north kingdom of Israel. In the new testament (Mathieu), Christ on the cross say in aramean " Eli, Eli , lama sabactani" (God, God, Why do you leave me ?). Probably the word "Eli", "El" or "Elohim" was the most use during the period of second Temple.

Frederic
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Aarmale
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« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2009, 03:04:39 pm »

El means G-D in Hebrew; hence Eli, עלי , means "My God".  It is made up of the Two Words, El and Sheli, "G-D" and "mine". 
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היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פלפלתא חריפתא ממלי צני קרי
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« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2009, 03:25:44 pm »

It was undoubtedly used a lot, but .... was also used a lot, in Ezra for instance. Elohim is ambiguous; it's also used to mean 'gods' (the same word was used in the Canaanite of the previous millennium to mean the lesser gods; their high god was El), and angels, in Gensis 6:2, for instance. the beney-elohim, or 'sons of the heavenly beings' are obviously heavenly beings themselves. 'Sons of God' is a common translation, but won't do as the same passage uses .... Elohim for God.

The meaning obviously depends on context, and they'd have been quite clear about when they used it to mean 'God'.
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Biblical & Judean Coins (Moderators: Salem Alshdaifat, Aarmale)  |  Topic: Tetragrammaton « previous next »
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