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Author Topic: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?  (Read 7266 times)

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Offline cliff_marsland

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How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« on: August 22, 2009, 01:17:33 pm »
I was wondering, are Postumus Sestertii/Double Sestertii ever found in the central Empire?  How often are they found in Britain or Spain?

For that matter, how long do you think the average one circulated?  To get to Fine or so, one would think that it was at least 20 years; I'm guessing till 294 or so?

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2009, 03:49:18 pm »
They're always up for sale, often in poor condition, so there must presumably be a trickle of finds all the time. Does anyone know about recent hoard finds? I wouldn't have expected them to circulate regularly outside the Gallic Empire, but that wouldn't preclude the occasional find.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline cliff_marsland

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2009, 05:02:54 pm »
I neglected to ask, were they illegal in the central empire?  I heard that Postumus Ants were preferred over Gallienus' in Rome, but I don't know if that was true.

Postumus Double Sestertii seem to be rare in VF or better.  I'm tempted by at least one Forum example, and will probably eventually end up buying it if available at the time.

HERC DEVOSONENSI is one of my favorite reverses.  I wonder if it celebrated a victory in that town, or that Postumus was from there?

I'm very picky about the style, though.  Generally I'll only buy this one particular obverse style:

(from acsearch, not my own coin).

Offline mauseus

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2009, 12:44:47 pm »
Hi,

In the Bastien monograph they appear to be recorded mainly in France. When I wrote the chapter in my book on these I was able to identify a quite a few from the German FMRD volumes plus a handful of finds from southern Britain. I also recorded in an unpublished Durham university MA thesis a postumus sestertius metal detector find from the east of York (Bolton, near Warter), the most northerly recorded example from Britain to my knowledge.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2009, 04:13:11 pm »
I neglected to ask, were they illegal in the central empire?  I heard that Postumus Ants were preferred over Gallienus' in Rome, but I don't know if that was true.

Many of Postumus' ants were struck in better metal (this is a strictly relative term!) than Central Empire coin, doubtless due to his possession of the Spanish silver mines. The quality of Gallic Empire coin started going downhill once Spain defected to the Central Empire. So, yes, it would make sense that his ants might have been preferred. Is there any literary evidence of this?
Robert Brenchley

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Offline cliff_marsland

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2009, 04:36:02 pm »
Good question; I remember reading about the preference, but I couldn't tell you where I read it - it must have been at least 10 years ago.

I have a question about one of the abundant types of the reign; LAETITIA AVG with galley.  Is this referring to the Channel fleet, or perhaps the Rhine fleet?

I would be surprised if Postumus' Sestertii were ever found east of Siscia.  I was wondering if they are ever found in Italy, Pannonia, or Dalmatia?

And would a Double Sestertius also be a Quinarius? I wonder if people at the time referred to the piece as a double-sestertius or a Quinarius?

Offline mauseus

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2009, 05:06:32 pm »
The recording I did was 10 years ago just as the PAS was getting on its feet. Prior to then very little bronze was recorded properly when isolated finds.

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2009, 06:54:19 pm »
I have a question about one of the abundant types of the reign; LAETITIA AVG with galley.  Is this referring to the Channel fleet, or perhaps the Rhine fleet?

Postumus' first issue (SALVS PROVINCIARVM) shows a river god on the reverse, with a prow without a ram, hence a river boat. That's an unequivocal reference to the Rhine or another major river system. The Rhine has to be far and away  the most likely.

His LAETITIA AVG issues show a sea-going galley with a ram, so presumably they refer to the North Sea or Channel fleet, if there was any distinction between the two.
Robert Brenchley

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larsporsenna

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Re: a postumus sestertius story
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2009, 11:56:25 am »
many years  ago i lived in milan italy. when i travelled back to the us to visit the us and back, i would go through london -cheaper flights there.  i would always pick up a postumus bronze because they were very very scarce in italy, and had good trade value!
at the  time circa 1982-85, i saw  many "detector" finds.at the coin markets in london, a lot of postumus bronze mostly in bad shape.
i picked up  a postumus res gallarum dupondius for  my collection in this way.
cinecias

Offline PYL

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2009, 04:15:29 pm »
If this be able to help you:

Jean LAFAURIE
-La chronologie des empereurs gaulois
in Revue numismatique, Année 1964, Volume 6, Numéro 6
p. 91 - 127
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/numi_0484-8942_1964_num_6_6_1093#

Map of the coin hoards buried between the middle of the year 265 and the middle of the year 271

Offline cliff_marsland

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2009, 04:21:42 pm »
Excellent - thanks!

Do you think that this would argue against the attribution of one of the mints (except for the signed pieces late in Postumus' reign) against the attribution of one of the mints to Colonia Agrippina, in favor of Augusta Treverororum instead?  The find sites seem to radiate out of Augusta Treverorum to a greater extent than Cologne.

Also, the sites to the south seem to suggest the traditional attribution of Lugdunum to the branch mint.

Offline PYL

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2009, 03:08:47 pm »
difficult question!
let us look at a map.
and when I compare it with the air of sharing out of treasures
I have the impression that this forms an axe Caen-Triers
Lyon (Lugdunum) it not possible!

Offline mauseus

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2009, 06:58:09 pm »
Hi,
Do you think that this would argue against the attribution of one of the mints (except for the signed pieces late in Postumus' reign) against the attribution of one of the mints to Colonia Agrippina, in favor of Augusta Treverororum instead?  The find sites seem to radiate out of Augusta Treverorum to a greater extent than Cologne.

Also, the sites to the south seem to suggest the traditional attribution of Lugdunum to the branch mint.
Coin find distributions can prove tricky, for example the Britannia as of Pius, being found mainly in the UK was supposed to have been made here, although it is much more likely to have had preferential supply here (see Hobley for the distribution of 2nd century bronze).

We also don't know if the coin had a specific use that would influence its distribution. Is it a coincidence that most of the (reported) UK finds are near the south coast and the reported French finds gravitate to the Channel coast (customs fees, import tax etc influencing the coastal nature/river network of the finds).

Just a little food for thought....

Regards,

Mauseus

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2009, 04:57:55 pm »
There was no established mint here in Pius' day, so unless he can be shown to have made regular use of a travelling mint, it wouldn't make sense to claim that the coins were minted here.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline PeterD

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2009, 05:58:25 am »
This is what Sear says in RCVM:

"There was further unrest in Britain in the mid-150s, the beginning of an unsettled period in the island province which saw the abandonment of the Antonine Wall between the Forth and Clyde and the recommissioning of the more southerly Hadrianic frontier.
The careless striking of this type and the fact that they almost never turn up outside of Britain may indicate that they were struck in the province, perhaps in the region of the northern frontier."

I don't think it would have required the presence of the Emperor to mint coins. Setting up a temporary mint wouldn't have been that difficult.
Peter, London

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Offline mauseus

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Re: How far did Postumus Sestertii circulate?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2009, 07:09:38 am »
Hi,

The Britannia coins of Pius were not struck in Britain; Malcolm Todd's paper in the sixties doesn't really suggest seriously that they were, from memory. Unpublished metallic composition analyses of the series done by the University of Durham in the 1990's shows consistency with Rome mint metal (I know that the raw metal and dies could have been transported but the whole argument doesn't stack really). The mint was Rome.

Hobley's work on second century bronze (BAR volume from around 1999) purports to demonstrate specific bronze coin types from Rome to specific regions but again it's a while since I've reviewed his data.

Regards,

Mauseus

 

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