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Author Topic: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...  (Read 26302 times)

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Offline Gaseous Maximus

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2009, 03:26:56 am »
All the more reason to buy from dealers that you know and trust, like you Joe. And of course you have a business to run and a family to support.

But Joe you must understand the lure of Ebay. As do you, since you do post the occasional flotsam on  it. I have bought coins you have listed on Ebay.

Neophytes hoping to get a deal are far more likely to take a chance rather than pay the fair market value that you have your coins listed for on FAC, albeit with the guarantee of authenticity. It's a bit like buying a lottery ticket.

I have to say the Probus coins if fake are very convincing and posted individually on Ebay or even on your auction site would be difficult to separate from genuine. Do you vet sellers?  Your ban on 'the sky is falling' may now be redundant. It's on the ground. Ban me if you wish from the Forum, but these days anyone less than a very seasoned collector is hard pressed to separate genuine from very accomplished fakes. I think we recall that my friend David Sear had a Forum issue last year with a coin he pronounced genuine for AAH. I think it turned out to be the original.

We live in strange times. Let's not make them any stranger.

Gaseous

Offline areich

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2009, 03:48:31 am »
Any collector that is not experienced enough to spot these fakes should only buy from people who can.
If they insist to buy from unknown Ebay sellers they will buy the occasional fake. This is true in any field, not just ancient coins.
Ebay is a great place to buy if you know what you're doing, if not, not so much.

There's no need to run around like headless chickens every time some new fakes are posted.
That is what 'the sky is falling!' is.

This is not about Sear authenticating a fake coin, no one is infallible and no one thinks (I hope) Sear is.

I'd like to know how convincing these are in hand, does anybody have any of these to study?
For me, all this means is that I'll have to look a little closer when buying from junk boxes
but I really doubt they'll pass as genuine in hand.

Andreas
Andreas Reich

Offline Merinda

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2009, 04:05:39 pm »
See this new post in Ancients.info, that is discussing a hoard for sale with the same types / mints and most likely dies as the coins listed in this post: http://ancients.info/forums/showthread.php?p=14598&posted=1#post14598

Allan

Offline areich

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2009, 04:23:32 pm »
I'm not totally sure but isn't 'sacra moneta' another incarnation of a well-known Swiss fake seller?
Andreas Reich

Offline Danny S. Jones

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2009, 04:26:22 pm »
I bought a coin on eBay which turned out to be a high quality and convincing cast. If I had done my research, I could have seen it was a fake before I bought it. Thankfully, I got a refund.

A couple weeks later, I saw the same coin listed on V-Coins by one of the biggest names in the business. (I won't say who.) I contacted him and he pulled the coin.

Here's the thing: If you do your homework, you're less likely to be ripped off. And, if you stick with reputable dealers, even if an ocassional fake passes through, they'll give you your money back if you find it to be unauthentic.

It's been said a thousand times... so once again, what's the moral of the story???????

Repeat it to yourself. Write it 500 times on the chalkboard. Use post-it notes. Tie a ribbon on your finger.

1. Do you homework.
2. Don't buy from idiots on ebay. (Buy on eBay, just not from the idiots) :)
3. Stick with reputable dealers with a guarantee of authenticity.
4. Take a deep breath, calm down and repeat...
                                                                            "The sky is not falling. Chicken little is on crack.
                                                                              The sky is not falling. Chicken little is on crack."

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2009, 04:30:55 pm »
A reputable dealer will give you your money back if you buy a fake from them, but it only works if you spot it! Every collector, wherever they buy, needs to learn enough to be able to identify fakes. Besides, there can't be a fraction the fun in a collection of bits of metal. 'Joe says this is so-and-so. Barry Murphy says that is such-and-such."
Robert Brenchley

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Offline John M

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2009, 09:11:43 pm »
I purchased 25 coins (not via eBay... the seller contacted me directly).  Since I paid via paypal, I have opened a dispute and will eventually receive my 6 euro per coin back.  They are tricky--until you see they are all from the same die (which you wouldn't likely do if you bought a coin individually and not as part of a lot). 

Vic
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Offline Danny S. Jones

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2009, 09:51:09 pm »
Can you post photos of your coins?

Offline Paul D3

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2009, 09:55:33 pm »
Those truly afraid that they have bought a fake every time they make a purchase can focus on coins that arn't faked as much, such as the most common coins in humdrum condition. They are just as anciant and historical as the cap and dagger denarius. Also, I understand that no fakers have yet ventured into the relm of Barbarous radiates. The most fearful could confine themselves to those, and mabye even write the first handbook or catalouge for them--

Offline Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2009, 03:04:38 pm »
You could have a lot of fun collecting FEL TEMPS, GLORIA EX's, or Gothicus ants, and buy with confidence! Any fake is likely to be so crude that once you'd bought a couple of coins, you'd spot it in a flash.
Robert Brenchley

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Offline wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2009, 03:15:52 pm »
Those truly afraid that they have bought a fake every time they make a purchase can focus on coins that arn't faked as much, such as the most common coins in humdrum condition. They are just as anciant and historical as the cap and dagger denarius. Also, I understand that no fakers have yet ventured into the relm of Barbarous radiates. The most fearful could confine themselves to those, and mabye even write the first handbook or catalouge for them--

I think nothing could be easier to fake than a barbarous type.  It has already happened many times with "Celtic" imitations, and is inevitable with simple bronze minims.  Dream on, Teresa!

I also think excessive concern with fakes and modern imitations is a form of mild obsession.  But what is "excessive?"

And I agree that the most common coins are just as ancient and historical as the run of the mill rarity, if not a cap and dagger denarius.  Cheers, George Spradling
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Offline helvetica

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2009, 08:30:44 am »
The coins come from Serbia. A dealer friend of mine was in Vienna and bought some from a Serb there who was selling coins.
Someone else I know in the US wanted to send me pics of "folles in as-struck state" for wildwinds, which he had just bought, but they all turned out to be these fakes.
A friend of mine from Geneva brought 4 different of them to me over the weekend, to look at and I must say, they are extremely well made. They seem to be struck using a transfer die, my extremely sensitive nose can trace no smell of paint (for the patina), there are no air-bubble pinholes and apart from a few pointers which collectors will recognise, it is not surprising that even dealers have fallen into the trap. For interest's sake I swapped them for genuine coins.
I put these four - the VOT [rev: Thess. 27-32], Emperor on Galley [Siscia 244], the Phoenix [Siscia 241] and the soldiers and standards [Heraclea 112] onto the Fake Gallery on Saturday but maybe someone could put the others on.
Does anyone have a Fel Temp fallen horseman type ?? I will gladly swap one for a couple of genuine coins !

Offline helvetica

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2009, 08:36:04 am »
I forgot to mention - the four coins mentioned in my previous post are all on flans of EXACTLY the same size. When you put them on top of each other, it's like a pile of modern copper coins, all identical in size, thickness and - presumably - in weight.

I have added the Probus fakes to the Probus RIC list - I got 3 emails today from people (obviously not Forvm members  ;) saying their coin wasn't in the list and could I help... All of them die matches to those in images in this thread.

Offline Ardatirion

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2009, 01:39:34 pm »
Quote from: PtolemAE on July 27, 2009, 01:04:21 am
Am I the only one that is nervous over these? Now I am a novice but I certainly can't see the obviousness of fakes here.
Really pisses me off to tell you the truth.
You do not see that all type coins are struck with the same dies??? only struck on different flan shapes... These are all MODERN struck coins for sure. What would be the chances that these would be a genuine hoard with all die matches and burried imidiate after struck... Also from some of these antoninianii are already fake reports made, And I'm almost sure that the other follii and AE-3 coins are made by the same studio.
I sure might be missing something, but what is wrong with the campgate? It looks like Constantivs II RIC VII 124, which exists with a delta.
Yes sadly the campgate is also struck on new repatinated metal. Many of these coins look very convincing and deceiving on pictures. That why I think some of these are very dangerous fakes. and how many are circulating around already? When I'm back in my office monday I will try to make some more pictures. I found also a Diocletion and a Severina in this group wich I do not trust..

Marcel

I understand the circumstantial evidence (what is the chance of coins of same dies being buried together...) but is there other, harder, conclusive evidence that all of these are fakes?   does anyone know how many dies were used to make the 'real' ones?  seems like it would be easier and cheaper to find real ones than make this many types of good quality fakes (unless these are all rare types).

doesn't patina sometimes flake or wear or etch away on coins that have been (perhaps aggressively) cleaned?

IOW - good reason to be suspicious, but does that make it certain?  could some be ancient counterfeit or imitative coins (e.g. the mule)?

it would be interesting to learn what the metal composition is, and if that compares unfavorably with real ancient coins of these types.

Tks,

PtolemAE


I know I'm a bit late on this (HOW did I miss this thread?!) but can some respond to this question?

Essentially, what we have to figure out is how to pick them out of a lineup. If I (or an reputable dealer for that matter) look through a selection of coins, what makes one of these noticeable as a fake? Yes, they have "fake patina" but plenty of people repatinate genuine coins.

This is like that French "votive hoard" from a few years ago.

Offline areich

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Re: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2009, 01:49:30 pm »
Fake patina and cracks like pressed coins, some of them (but not all) have rather sharp edges.
Some (but not all) seem a little flatter than they should be. Nothing that really screams 'FAKE!'
Andreas Reich

 

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