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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before... 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Goltbeeck
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« on: July 25, 2009, 11:26:37 am »

I received a large lot of Roman follii and Antoninianii for a consignment, all coins looked like being in mint state according to the owner… and even better they had all been struck with the same dies…
The coins I received contained a hoard of nice late folli/AE-3, But at the first looks in my hand I did not like them at all, and comparing them all together… yes.. all type are struck… with the same dies… only not so long ago for sure. All coins have a nice artificial patina with some bright new copper showing through at some of the higher points. I had seen already some new fake antoninianus of Carus and Probus which I think were listed already in this forum before. The second “hoard“ in this lot contained those already famous types of Probus and Carus and some new types I did not see before. They came as a consignment and they will be returned to the owner again. He says that he got them straight out of Serbia. So the coins will be returned and not a big loss… Then I started looking through some other lots with coins, in one lot containing 2000 cleaned Romans these were also mixed through, maybe 10% or more were these new type of fakes… For someone not very familiar with ancient coins they can look very convincing. I took out the fakes for returning, and luckily the other 90% is still genuine… but where does this stop?
I will list photo’s of the types I found in this post. Anybody has an idea who and where they are made? Someone told me Bulgaria, but all coins came from Serbia. Funny that other lots with Silver Denarii and Antoninianii are all genuine again… A new disease spreading faster than the Mexican flue…?

Marcel
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2009, 11:27:51 am »

and more...
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2009, 11:28:41 am »

more
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2009, 11:29:33 am »

some more...
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2009, 11:30:15 am »

it ain't over yet..
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2009, 11:30:58 am »

and again some
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2009, 11:31:40 am »

more
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2009, 11:32:38 am »

and some more
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Congius
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2009, 12:54:14 pm »

Interesting.

I'm not sure if they are all from the same source though. A couple look a bit out of place.

Are you sure the Aurelian is fake? I wonder if the Constantine Dafne's may be cast rather than from modern die. The style looks good on those.

Ben
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2009, 01:24:17 pm »

The obeverses of the Constantine Dafnes appears to be like a weak struck, but I'm almost sure they are not cast but struck. I have 3 pieces in this lot of this type, all the flans are different, of each coin, wich does not indicate casting to me. All coins are made of the same metal and with the same patina, some have had a bit different treatment, so they look more aged, or they did put some dirt on it. Also the Aurelian is from the same metal, same patina and style, I had my doubts too about this coins as there was only one of it in this lot. Its hard to see on the pictures but they all have the same style, very smooth patina, sharp details (exept for the Dafnes obeverses). And showing bright, shinny metal om some higher spots.

Marcel
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maridvnvm
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2009, 01:35:34 pm »

The bottom right hand coin on the last batch is interesting, where they have taken the obverse die used on the PROVIDENTIA AVG coin, which is from Siscia and combined it with a Rome mint reverse.

You cannot judge these by style as the style is derived from real coins. The Probus coins are spot on and you can spot the mint differences from the style alone.

Martin
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2009, 02:44:13 pm »

The bottom right hand coin on the last batch is interesting, where they have taken the obverse die used on the PROVIDENTIA AVG coin, which is from Siscia and combined it with a Rome mint reverse.

The Constantine II VOTA type is also a mess - it's a muled pairing of a caesar with a reverse for the augusti, and the laureate-only bust doesn't even belong to that issue.

Quote
You cannot judge these by style as the style is derived from real coins. The Probus coins are spot on and you can spot the mint differences from the style alone.

Derived as in transfer dies of some sort perhaps?

Ben
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2009, 02:54:50 pm »

Whew, that's a lot of fakes.  I'm glad to see no emperors I collect in that group.
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2009, 09:28:17 pm »

Am I the only one that is nervous over these? Now I am a novice but I certainly can't see the obviousness of fakes here.
Really pisses me off to tell you the truth.
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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2009, 09:55:24 pm »

I sure might be missing something, but what is wrong with the campgate? It looks like Constantivs II RIC VII 124, which exists with a delta.
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2009, 03:20:30 am »

Am I the only one that is nervous over these? Now I am a novice but I certainly can't see the obviousness of fakes here.
Really pisses me off to tell you the truth.
You do not see that all type coins are struck with the same dies??? only struck on different flan shapes... These are all MODERN struck coins for sure. What would be the chances that these would be a genuine hoard with all die matches and burried imidiate after struck... Also from some of these antoninianii are already fake reports made, And I'm almost sure that the other follii and AE-3 coins are made by the same studio.
I sure might be missing something, but what is wrong with the campgate? It looks like Constantivs II RIC VII 124, which exists with a delta.
Yes sadly the campgate is also struck on new repatinated metal. Many of these coins look very convincing and deceiving on pictures. That why I think some of these are very dangerous fakes. and how many are circulating around already? When I'm back in my office monday I will try to make some more pictures. I found also a Diocletion and a Severina in this group wich I do not trust..

Marcel

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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2009, 08:09:22 am »

The title of this thread is not appropriate.   These fake coins are NOT an epidemic and are not spreading fast.  "Sky is falling" exaggerations are PROHIBITED here. 
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« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2009, 08:33:26 am »

The title of this thread is not appropriate.   These fake coins are NOT an epidemic and are not spreading fast.  "Sky is falling" exaggerations are PROHIBITED here. 

Right, the title was not appropiate. I just changed it. The idea of a flue crossed my mind when I saw these fake lots. I knew about some types that were already seen before, but the others were new to me and as I found them also between the usualy genuine coins I recieved I was suprised and thinking that they could be easily become widespread. The idea of a title as a flue came because some time ago there was a term like the Bulgarian flue. But agreed, not appropiate now in these days.

Marcel
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« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2009, 09:24:21 am »

I don't think it's because of the current flu, just that, as Joe said, sensational posts
along the lines of 'the sky is falling' are not wanted. Sure, there are new fakes once in a while,
good fakes like some of these but it doesn't mean you should stop collecting.
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Andreas Reich
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« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2009, 09:38:22 am »

I know, only I realized that the term flu could no be appriciated by many now, Also absolutly no discouragement to collecting ancient coins, But a warning that there are again new type of fakes comming up. I was just suprised that I got so many of these now between the last coins I recieved.   
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« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2009, 11:04:21 pm »

Am I the only one that is nervous over these? Now I am a novice but I certainly can't see the obviousness of fakes here.
Really pisses me off to tell you the truth.
You do not see that all type coins are struck with the same dies??? only struck on different flan shapes... These are all MODERN struck coins for sure. What would be the chances that these would be a genuine hoard with all die matches and burried imidiate after struck... Also from some of these antoninianii are already fake reports made, And I'm almost sure that the other follii and AE-3 coins are made by the same studio.
I sure might be missing something, but what is wrong with the campgate? It looks like Constantivs II RIC VII 124, which exists with a delta.
Yes sadly the campgate is also struck on new repatinated metal. Many of these coins look very convincing and deceiving on pictures. That why I think some of these are very dangerous fakes. and how many are circulating around already? When I'm back in my office monday I will try to make some more pictures. I found also a Diocletion and a Severina in this group wich I do not trust..

Marcel

I understand the circumstantial evidence (what is the chance of coins of same dies being buried together...) but is there other, harder, conclusive evidence that all of these are fakes?   does anyone know how many dies were used to make the 'real' ones?  seems like it would be easier and cheaper to find real ones than make this many types of good quality fakes (unless these are all rare types).

doesn't patina sometimes flake or wear or etch away on coins that have been (perhaps aggressively) cleaned?

IOW - good reason to be suspicious, but does that make it certain?  could some be ancient counterfeit or imitative coins (e.g. the mule)?

it would be interesting to learn what the metal composition is, and if that compares unfavorably with real ancient coins of these types.

Tks,

PtolemAE
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2009, 02:20:15 am »

Mint state coins from the same dies are often found together.  Any one of the groups above could easily be explained but all the different groups from different reigns, that is beyond suspicious.   These look dangerous in the photos.  Hopefully they are less so in hand. 
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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2009, 02:24:13 am »

I wish these all would be genuine..., But they are not. The pictures unfortenedly do not show the high lighted copper/bronze on the higher reliefs of the coins, they are certenedly not over cleaned. At a first look they ALL have nice and smooth dark glossy patina's. To me it does not make sense why to make fakes of the usualy common types. But how many coins can one struck with one good steel die? 100? 1000? perhaps 10.000? for 100 coins I think its not worth all the work, but for 1000 and than selling them for lets say 5 Eur each? thats already Eur 5000 for the maker, can you imagine if you have 10 different dies and create 1000 of each type. Now I don't know how many there are, maybe just a few. As told before I got these as consigment, and the seller wanted a minimum of 10 euro for each coin. He told me that he payed 7 euro each. I will see if I can make some better pics today.

Marcel
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2009, 02:31:00 am »

Joe, I agree that its not unusual that there are mint state coins from the same dies found together.
The antoninianii were offered to me in a different lot than the later coins. but the type of metal, patina's etc. are in my oppinion the same style. Perhaps they can look authentic on the picture, even if you take them in your hand they look good. but if you put them all next to eachother, they look very suspicious to me.

Marcel
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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2009, 01:50:53 pm »

when you look at these antoninianii (in the hand) ... very bad impression... wrong dimension, wrong thickness... very inconvincible...
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« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2009, 01:26:56 am »

All the more reason to buy from dealers that you know and trust, like you Joe. And of course you have a business to run and a family to support.

But Joe you must understand the lure of Ebay. As do you, since you do post the occasional flotsam on  it. I have bought coins you have listed on Ebay.

Neophytes hoping to get a deal are far more likely to take a chance rather than pay the fair market value that you have your coins listed for on FAC, albeit with the guarantee of authenticity. It's a bit like buying a lottery ticket.

I have to say the Probus coins if fake are very convincing and posted individually on Ebay or even on your auction site would be difficult to separate from genuine. Do you vet sellers?  Your ban on 'the sky is falling' may now be redundant. It's on the ground. Ban me if you wish from the Forum, but these days anyone less than a very seasoned collector is hard pressed to separate genuine from very accomplished fakes. I think we recall that my friend David Sear had a Forum issue last year with a coin he pronounced genuine for AAH. I think it turned out to be the original.

We live in strange times. Let's not make them any stranger.

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« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2009, 01:48:31 am »

Any collector that is not experienced enough to spot these fakes should only buy from people who can.
If they insist to buy from unknown Ebay sellers they will buy the occasional fake. This is true in any field, not just ancient coins.
Ebay is a great place to buy if you know what you're doing, if not, not so much.

There's no need to run around like headless chickens every time some new fakes are posted.
That is what 'the sky is falling!' is.

This is not about Sear authenticating a fake coin, no one is infallible and no one thinks (I hope) Sear is.

I'd like to know how convincing these are in hand, does anybody have any of these to study?
For me, all this means is that I'll have to look a little closer when buying from junk boxes
but I really doubt they'll pass as genuine in hand.

Andreas
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Andreas Reich
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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2009, 02:05:39 pm »

See this new post in Ancients.info, that is discussing a hoard for sale with the same types / mints and most likely dies as the coins listed in this post: http://ancients.info/forums/showthread.php?p=14598&posted=1#post14598

Allan
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2009, 02:23:32 pm »

I'm not totally sure but isn't 'sacra moneta' another incarnation of a well-known Swiss fake seller?
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« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2009, 02:26:22 pm »

I bought a coin on eBay which turned out to be a high quality and convincing cast. If I had done my research, I could have seen it was a fake before I bought it. Thankfully, I got a refund.

A couple weeks later, I saw the same coin listed on V-Coins by one of the biggest names in the business. (I won't say who.) I contacted him and he pulled the coin.

Here's the thing: If you do your homework, you're less likely to be ripped off. And, if you stick with reputable dealers, even if an ocassional fake passes through, they'll give you your money back if you find it to be unauthentic.

It's been said a thousand times... so once again, what's the moral of the story?HuhHuh

Repeat it to yourself. Write it 500 times on the chalkboard. Use post-it notes. Tie a ribbon on your finger.

1. Do you homework.
2. Don't buy from idiots on ebay. (Buy on eBay, just not from the idiots) Smiley
3. Stick with reputable dealers with a guarantee of authenticity.
4. Take a deep breath, calm down and repeat...
                                                                            "The sky is not falling. Chicken little is on crack.
                                                                              The sky is not falling. Chicken little is on crack."
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« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2009, 02:30:55 pm »

A reputable dealer will give you your money back if you buy a fake from them, but it only works if you spot it! Every collector, wherever they buy, needs to learn enough to be able to identify fakes. Besides, there can't be a fraction the fun in a collection of bits of metal. 'Joe says this is so-and-so. Barry Murphy says that is such-and-such."
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« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2009, 07:11:43 pm »

I purchased 25 coins (not via eBay... the seller contacted me directly).  Since I paid via paypal, I have opened a dispute and will eventually receive my 6 euro per coin back.  They are tricky--until you see they are all from the same die (which you wouldn't likely do if you bought a coin individually and not as part of a lot). 

Vic
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« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2009, 07:51:09 pm »

Can you post photos of your coins?
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« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2009, 07:55:33 pm »

Those truly afraid that they have bought a fake every time they make a purchase can focus on coins that arn't faked as much, such as the most common coins in humdrum condition. They are just as anciant and historical as the cap and dagger denarius. Also, I understand that no fakers have yet ventured into the relm of Barbarous radiates. The most fearful could confine themselves to those, and mabye even write the first handbook or catalouge for them--
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« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2009, 01:04:38 pm »

You could have a lot of fun collecting FEL TEMPS, GLORIA EX's, or Gothicus ants, and buy with confidence! Any fake is likely to be so crude that once you'd bought a couple of coins, you'd spot it in a flash.
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« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2009, 01:15:52 pm »

Those truly afraid that they have bought a fake every time they make a purchase can focus on coins that arn't faked as much, such as the most common coins in humdrum condition. They are just as anciant and historical as the cap and dagger denarius. Also, I understand that no fakers have yet ventured into the relm of Barbarous radiates. The most fearful could confine themselves to those, and mabye even write the first handbook or catalouge for them--

I think nothing could be easier to fake than a barbarous type.  It has already happened many times with "Celtic" imitations, and is inevitable with simple bronze minims.  Dream on, Teresa!

I also think excessive concern with fakes and modern imitations is a form of mild obsession.  But what is "excessive?"

And I agree that the most common coins are just as ancient and historical as the run of the mill rarity, if not a cap and dagger denarius.  Cheers, George Spradling
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2009, 06:30:44 am »

The coins come from Serbia. A dealer friend of mine was in Vienna and bought some from a Serb there who was selling coins.
Someone else I know in the US wanted to send me pics of "folles in as-struck state" for wildwinds, which he had just bought, but they all turned out to be these fakes.
A friend of mine from Geneva brought 4 different of them to me over the weekend, to look at and I must say, they are extremely well made. They seem to be struck using a transfer die, my extremely sensitive nose can trace no smell of paint (for the patina), there are no air-bubble pinholes and apart from a few pointers which collectors will recognise, it is not surprising that even dealers have fallen into the trap. For interest's sake I swapped them for genuine coins.
I put these four - the VOT [rev: Thess. 27-32], Emperor on Galley [Siscia 244], the Phoenix [Siscia 241] and the soldiers and standards [Heraclea 112] onto the Fake Gallery on Saturday but maybe someone could put the others on.
Does anyone have a Fel Temp fallen horseman type ?? I will gladly swap one for a couple of genuine coins !
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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2009, 06:36:04 am »

I forgot to mention - the four coins mentioned in my previous post are all on flans of EXACTLY the same size. When you put them on top of each other, it's like a pile of modern copper coins, all identical in size, thickness and - presumably - in weight.

I have added the Probus fakes to the Probus RIC list - I got 3 emails today from people (obviously not Forvm members  Wink saying their coin wasn't in the list and could I help... All of them die matches to those in images in this thread.
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« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2009, 11:39:34 am »

Quote from: PtolemAE on July 26, 2009, 11:04:21 pm
Am I the only one that is nervous over these? Now I am a novice but I certainly can't see the obviousness of fakes here.
Really pisses me off to tell you the truth.
You do not see that all type coins are struck with the same dies??? only struck on different flan shapes... These are all MODERN struck coins for sure. What would be the chances that these would be a genuine hoard with all die matches and burried imidiate after struck... Also from some of these antoninianii are already fake reports made, And I'm almost sure that the other follii and AE-3 coins are made by the same studio.
I sure might be missing something, but what is wrong with the campgate? It looks like Constantivs II RIC VII 124, which exists with a delta.
Yes sadly the campgate is also struck on new repatinated metal. Many of these coins look very convincing and deceiving on pictures. That why I think some of these are very dangerous fakes. and how many are circulating around already? When I'm back in my office monday I will try to make some more pictures. I found also a Diocletion and a Severina in this group wich I do not trust..

Marcel

I understand the circumstantial evidence (what is the chance of coins of same dies being buried together...) but is there other, harder, conclusive evidence that all of these are fakes?   does anyone know how many dies were used to make the 'real' ones?  seems like it would be easier and cheaper to find real ones than make this many types of good quality fakes (unless these are all rare types).

doesn't patina sometimes flake or wear or etch away on coins that have been (perhaps aggressively) cleaned?

IOW - good reason to be suspicious, but does that make it certain?  could some be ancient counterfeit or imitative coins (e.g. the mule)?

it would be interesting to learn what the metal composition is, and if that compares unfavorably with real ancient coins of these types.

Tks,

PtolemAE


I know I'm a bit late on this (HOW did I miss this thread?!) but can some respond to this question?

Essentially, what we have to figure out is how to pick them out of a lineup. If I (or an reputable dealer for that matter) look through a selection of coins, what makes one of these noticeable as a fake? Yes, they have "fake patina" but plenty of people repatinate genuine coins.

This is like that French "votive hoard" from a few years ago.
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« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2009, 11:49:30 am »

Fake patina and cracks like pressed coins, some of them (but not all) have rather sharp edges.
Some (but not all) seem a little flatter than they should be. Nothing that really screams 'FAKE!'
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252-497-2724
customerservice@forumancientcoins.com
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