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Author Topic: Some new fakes wich I haven't seen before...  (Read 17643 times)
Goltbeeck
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« on: July 25, 2009, 11:26:37 am »

I received a large lot of Roman follii and Antoninianii for a consignment, all coins looked like being in mint state according to the owner… and even better they had all been struck with the same dies…
The coins I received contained a hoard of nice late folli/AE-3, But at the first looks in my hand I did not like them at all, and comparing them all together… yes.. all type are struck… with the same dies… only not so long ago for sure. All coins have a nice artificial patina with some bright new copper showing through at some of the higher points. I had seen already some new fake antoninianus of Carus and Probus which I think were listed already in this forum before. The second “hoard“ in this lot contained those already famous types of Probus and Carus and some new types I did not see before. They came as a consignment and they will be returned to the owner again. He says that he got them straight out of Serbia. So the coins will be returned and not a big loss… Then I started looking through some other lots with coins, in one lot containing 2000 cleaned Romans these were also mixed through, maybe 10% or more were these new type of fakes… For someone not very familiar with ancient coins they can look very convincing. I took out the fakes for returning, and luckily the other 90% is still genuine… but where does this stop?
I will list photo’s of the types I found in this post. Anybody has an idea who and where they are made? Someone told me Bulgaria, but all coins came from Serbia. Funny that other lots with Silver Denarii and Antoninianii are all genuine again… A new disease spreading faster than the Mexican flue…?

Marcel
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2009, 11:27:51 am »

and more...
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2009, 11:28:41 am »

more
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2009, 11:29:33 am »

some more...
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2009, 11:30:15 am »

it ain't over yet..
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2009, 11:30:58 am »

and again some
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2009, 11:31:40 am »

more
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Goltbeeck
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2009, 11:32:38 am »

and some more
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2009, 12:54:14 pm »

Interesting.

I'm not sure if they are all from the same source though. A couple look a bit out of place.

Are you sure the Aurelian is fake? I wonder if the Constantine Dafne's may be cast rather than from modern die. The style looks good on those.

Ben
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2009, 01:24:17 pm »

The obeverses of the Constantine Dafnes appears to be like a weak struck, but I'm almost sure they are not cast but struck. I have 3 pieces in this lot of this type, all the flans are different, of each coin, wich does not indicate casting to me. All coins are made of the same metal and with the same patina, some have had a bit different treatment, so they look more aged, or they did put some dirt on it. Also the Aurelian is from the same metal, same patina and style, I had my doubts too about this coins as there was only one of it in this lot. Its hard to see on the pictures but they all have the same style, very smooth patina, sharp details (exept for the Dafnes obeverses). And showing bright, shinny metal om some higher spots.

Marcel
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2009, 01:35:34 pm »

The bottom right hand coin on the last batch is interesting, where they have taken the obverse die used on the PROVIDENTIA AVG coin, which is from Siscia and combined it with a Rome mint reverse.

You cannot judge these by style as the style is derived from real coins. The Probus coins are spot on and you can spot the mint differences from the style alone.

Martin
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2009, 02:44:13 pm »

The bottom right hand coin on the last batch is interesting, where they have taken the obverse die used on the PROVIDENTIA AVG coin, which is from Siscia and combined it with a Rome mint reverse.

The Constantine II VOTA type is also a mess - it's a muled pairing of a caesar with a reverse for the augusti, and the laureate-only bust doesn't even belong to that issue.

Quote
You cannot judge these by style as the style is derived from real coins. The Probus coins are spot on and you can spot the mint differences from the style alone.

Derived as in transfer dies of some sort perhaps?

Ben
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2009, 02:54:50 pm »

Whew, that's a lot of fakes.  I'm glad to see no emperors I collect in that group.
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2009, 09:28:17 pm »

Am I the only one that is nervous over these? Now I am a novice but I certainly can't see the obviousness of fakes here.
Really pisses me off to tell you the truth.
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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2009, 09:55:24 pm »

I sure might be missing something, but what is wrong with the campgate? It looks like Constantivs II RIC VII 124, which exists with a delta.
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2009, 03:20:30 am »

Am I the only one that is nervous over these? Now I am a novice but I certainly can't see the obviousness of fakes here.
Really pisses me off to tell you the truth.
You do not see that all type coins are struck with the same dies??? only struck on different flan shapes... These are all MODERN struck coins for sure. What would be the chances that these would be a genuine hoard with all die matches and burried imidiate after struck... Also from some of these antoninianii are already fake reports made, And I'm almost sure that the other follii and AE-3 coins are made by the same studio.
I sure might be missing something, but what is wrong with the campgate? It looks like Constantivs II RIC VII 124, which exists with a delta.
Yes sadly the campgate is also struck on new repatinated metal. Many of these coins look very convincing and deceiving on pictures. That why I think some of these are very dangerous fakes. and how many are circulating around already? When I'm back in my office monday I will try to make some more pictures. I found also a Diocletion and a Severina in this group wich I do not trust..

Marcel

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Joe Sermarini
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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2009, 08:09:22 am »

The title of this thread is not appropriate.   These fake coins are NOT an epidemic and are not spreading fast.  "Sky is falling" exaggerations are PROHIBITED here. 
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« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2009, 08:33:26 am »

The title of this thread is not appropriate.   These fake coins are NOT an epidemic and are not spreading fast.  "Sky is falling" exaggerations are PROHIBITED here. 

Right, the title was not appropiate. I just changed it. The idea of a flue crossed my mind when I saw these fake lots. I knew about some types that were already seen before, but the others were new to me and as I found them also between the usualy genuine coins I recieved I was suprised and thinking that they could be easily become widespread. The idea of a title as a flue came because some time ago there was a term like the Bulgarian flue. But agreed, not appropiate now in these days.

Marcel
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« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2009, 09:24:21 am »

I don't think it's because of the current flu, just that, as Joe said, sensational posts
along the lines of 'the sky is falling' are not wanted. Sure, there are new fakes once in a while,
good fakes like some of these but it doesn't mean you should stop collecting.
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« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2009, 09:38:22 am »

I know, only I realized that the term flu could no be appriciated by many now, Also absolutly no discouragement to collecting ancient coins, But a warning that there are again new type of fakes comming up. I was just suprised that I got so many of these now between the last coins I recieved.   
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« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2009, 11:04:21 pm »

Am I the only one that is nervous over these? Now I am a novice but I certainly can't see the obviousness of fakes here.
Really pisses me off to tell you the truth.
You do not see that all type coins are struck with the same dies??? only struck on different flan shapes... These are all MODERN struck coins for sure. What would be the chances that these would be a genuine hoard with all die matches and burried imidiate after struck... Also from some of these antoninianii are already fake reports made, And I'm almost sure that the other follii and AE-3 coins are made by the same studio.
I sure might be missing something, but what is wrong with the campgate? It looks like Constantivs II RIC VII 124, which exists with a delta.
Yes sadly the campgate is also struck on new repatinated metal. Many of these coins look very convincing and deceiving on pictures. That why I think some of these are very dangerous fakes. and how many are circulating around already? When I'm back in my office monday I will try to make some more pictures. I found also a Diocletion and a Severina in this group wich I do not trust..

Marcel

I understand the circumstantial evidence (what is the chance of coins of same dies being buried together...) but is there other, harder, conclusive evidence that all of these are fakes?   does anyone know how many dies were used to make the 'real' ones?  seems like it would be easier and cheaper to find real ones than make this many types of good quality fakes (unless these are all rare types).

doesn't patina sometimes flake or wear or etch away on coins that have been (perhaps aggressively) cleaned?

IOW - good reason to be suspicious, but does that make it certain?  could some be ancient counterfeit or imitative coins (e.g. the mule)?

it would be interesting to learn what the metal composition is, and if that compares unfavorably with real ancient coins of these types.

Tks,

PtolemAE
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2009, 02:20:15 am »

Mint state coins from the same dies are often found together.  Any one of the groups above could easily be explained but all the different groups from different reigns, that is beyond suspicious.   These look dangerous in the photos.  Hopefully they are less so in hand. 
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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2009, 02:24:13 am »

I wish these all would be genuine..., But they are not. The pictures unfortenedly do not show the high lighted copper/bronze on the higher reliefs of the coins, they are certenedly not over cleaned. At a first look they ALL have nice and smooth dark glossy patina's. To me it does not make sense why to make fakes of the usualy common types. But how many coins can one struck with one good steel die? 100? 1000? perhaps 10.000? for 100 coins I think its not worth all the work, but for 1000 and than selling them for lets say 5 Eur each? thats already Eur 5000 for the maker, can you imagine if you have 10 different dies and create 1000 of each type. Now I don't know how many there are, maybe just a few. As told before I got these as consigment, and the seller wanted a minimum of 10 euro for each coin. He told me that he payed 7 euro each. I will see if I can make some better pics today.

Marcel
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2009, 02:31:00 am »

Joe, I agree that its not unusual that there are mint state coins from the same dies found together.
The antoninianii were offered to me in a different lot than the later coins. but the type of metal, patina's etc. are in my oppinion the same style. Perhaps they can look authentic on the picture, even if you take them in your hand they look good. but if you put them all next to eachother, they look very suspicious to me.

Marcel
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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2009, 01:50:53 pm »

when you look at these antoninianii (in the hand) ... very bad impression... wrong dimension, wrong thickness... very inconvincible...
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