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Author Topic: Commodus denarius  (Read 5720 times)

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Offline dougsmit

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Commodus denarius
« on: July 01, 2009, 10:17:33 pm »
[BROKEN LINK REMOVED BY ADMIN]

Two people on eBay thought this was worth more than most denarii of Commodus.  Did others of you see it and pass or did you not recognize what was special? 

I paid more for mine.
http://dougsmith.ancients.info/feac74per.html

Offline silvernut

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 05:13:52 pm »
Well, I for one had no idea Commodus had had denarii minted in Alexandria, so your post was indeed of interest to me. Of course, it makes sense that the mint was already functioning before Pertinax came to power, right? Was Commodus the first to have imperial coinage minted there?

Regards,
Ignasi

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 06:43:02 pm »
Was Commodus the first to have imperial coinage minted there?

Regards,
Ignasi

As far as I know he was but I am not at all convinced the Commodus was struck during his life.  There are two types seen by me.  The other is the Consecratio (several of these made Coin Galleries if you want to see them).  I'm also less than certain on what evidence I would accept that the Commodus or the Pertinax were struck during their respective reigns as opposed as during the period following the death of Pertinax.   I suspect there is a statistic on the date that Alexandria learned Pertinax was dead and a date they declared in favor of Septimius.  Between those two dates would be an excellent time to strike for  either of the recently deceased rulers.   If we accept the Consecratio as decreed by Septimius when he adopted himself into the family of Marcus, Commodus could have been later than 193.   We do have good evidence that some Septimius types of this mint copied old reverses including inappropriate dating legends so we can't be too hardcore pointing out that this coin is dated to an earlier year. 

Of course, I was hoping one of you would admit buying the coin.  I like to think that people on this list would like the subject and I always like to see things I can't buy go to a good home

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2009, 07:07:05 pm »
"Only recently have rare coins of this mint for Commodus been recognized," Doug Smith writes on his site.  The precise details of this discovery are not without interest.

The credit for discovering Alexandrian denarii of Commodus belongs mainly to Roger Bickford-Smith.

One type, CONSECRATIO, has been known for a long time, but was misattributed.  Cohen 61 (60 francs) quotes a specimen from Paris, and the BM has one too, published in BMC IV, p. 756, pl. 100.12.  See CoinArchives specimen from CNG auction below. Since the obv. legend is of Commodus alive not Divus, and the style is non-Roman, Mattingly considered this coin to be an ancient forgery, and nobody (me included) had seen any reason to contradict him!

Bickford-Smith, who in the 1980s and early 1990s was assembling a private collection (now in BM) of Eastern denarii of Septimius and family and also Pertinax, and who was also writing a monograph (never published) on the Alexandrian-mint denarii of this era, saw for the first time that these denarii must be official products of the mint of Alexandria, presumably struck immediately after Septimius consecrated Commodus in spring 195, since they are in good silver and show exactly the style of Alexandrian tetradrachms of Commodus.  See for example below a tetradrachm of Commodus' last year, Sept. 192 on, again taken from CoinArchives and CNG.

It was I who first came across a LIFETIME denarius of Commodus struck at Alexandria, like the two examples Doug Smith shows or links to above: the coin was in a group of pieces found in Austria, that had been submitted to the Numismatic Institute of the University of Vienna for attribution, where I saw them in November 1993.  The attribution was clear the moment I laid eyes on the coin, since Bickford-Smith had shown me what an Alexandrian denarius of Commodus should look like! Since then over a dozen other specimens have turned up: it's amazing how many rare coins are out there, once you know what to look for!

Alexandrian denarii are understandable for Septimius Severus, since he was campaigning in the East while the coins were struck, but how can we explain the production of such denarii for Commodus and Pertinax too, neither of whom ever visited the East during their reigns?

A possible explanation occurred to me, though I am very far from insisting that it must be correct!  We know that Commodus had serious plans to visit Alexandria, so much so that the Prefect of Egypt built a new bath building for him there to enjoy when he arrived, but the trip never came off before Commodus' assassination on 31 December 192.

Possibly Commodus' Alexandrian denarii, dated to 192, the last year of his reign, were also struck in anticipation of his planned visit to Egypt, though a few of them, the ones we find today, were also spent before his arrival.  After Commodus' assassination and damnation, the coins were unusable, so the mint decided, or was instructed, to melt them down and restrike them as denarii (rather than tetradrachms) of the next emperor, Pertinax.  

That saved having to debase the metal down to the standard of tetradrachms, and I assume Pertinax could find ways to spend denarii in the East, even without an imperial visit!  The denarii could of course be spent in Syria or Asia Minor too, whereas Alexandrian tetradrachms were only current in Egypt itself, and perhaps the administration would have had no need of so many new tetradrachms, if the entire "visit" issue of Commodus denarii had been restruck as that denomination.
Curtis Clay

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2009, 11:13:58 pm »
Certainly I find Curtis' proposal within reason and, as he says, far from being certain.  There are so many little odd points that make one wonder about the coins.  Roger Bickford-Smith was a remarkable student with an eye for details.  I'd criticize previous students of the coins for missing this style match but we don't really know if any of them ever saw an example.  We have to wonder why the mint missed the name switch from Marcus to Lucius and, if the coins were to support a proposed visit after December 10, why they were made TRP XVII rather than XVIII.  That is why I tend to write them off as a rote copy of some coins in hand rather than a 'real' dated issue.  The other oddity is that the letter form R is used in error twice for two different letters:  RM for PM and LIR for LIB.  Obviously Latin was not a strong suite. 

Finally we have the question of when Alexandria declared for Septimius against Pescennius.  What is the current status of the Pescennius coins once attributed to Alexandria?

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2009, 11:58:43 pm »
Cohen certainly saw the CONSECRATIO denarius in Paris; his 60 franc estimate proves he thought it was official, but he was not in the business of distinguishing and naming different mints!

Mattingly saw the one in the BM, and illustrated it in BMC IV for all to see.  Yet he called it an ancient imitation, and no one thought of revising that attribution until Bickford-Smith came along.

Of course as soon as Roger mentioned his reattribution to me, I was sure he was right!

Explaining TR P XVII is easy: the visit was definitely planned for 192, the baths were built and the coins were struck in anticipation, but then the trip was postponed after all!

Note the Roman bronze coins and aureus of this year showing Serapis and Isis greeting Commodus, who is crowned by Victory; this looks like an announcement of his planned visit to Egypt!  A sestertius from CoinArchives, unfortunately somewhat tooled, is illustrated below.

The mint of Alexandria itself was aware of Commodus' name change and correctly switched  his praenomen from M to L in the course of year 31=190-191 on its tetradrachms.  Yet the denarii of 192 oddly copied an earlier legend form with praenomen M and BRIT.  Strange indeed, but no argument for thinking the rev. too must be wrong and removing the coins from 192, in my opinion.

Yes, Niger struck some aurei at Alexandria; the mint attribution and authenticity of the coins was defended in the 1987 Numismatic Chronicle by Andrew Burnett, Roger Bland, and Simon Bendall.

Alexandria deserted Niger for Septimius on 13 Feb. 194.  I should be glad to hear why the city should then have commenced striking denarii for the condemned Commodus and the long deceased, deified Pertinax (though not calling him Divus and merely copying three of his lifetime rev. types), rather than for Septimius Severus and Julia Domna themselves!
Curtis Clay

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2013, 08:38:05 pm »
An occasion to reconsider the Alexandrian denarii of Commodus: Liesbeth Claes has written an article on them in English in Revue belge de numismatique CLVIII (2012), assembling and illustrating seven LIR AVG pieces and 16 CONSECRATIO, and observing for the first time an obverse die shared between the two types!

On examining her material and comparing it with my smaller collection of plaster casts of these denarii, I find that though she has misidentified the dies in quite a few cases, she was nevertheless right to find die sharing between the two reverse types.

Claes claims to find three obverse dies shared between the reverse types; I think it was only one. According to my analysis, the Libertas coins come from three obverse and six reverse dies, while the CONSECRATIO coins come from one of the same obverse dies and one other, and from five reverse dies.

A curious point: Roger Bickford-Smith observed that most of Septimius' Alexandrian denarii of 194 were struck with an upright die axis, whereas all of his Alexandrian denarii of 195 were struck with an inverted axis. For the Commodus pieces, the same change occurred simultaneously with the change of reverse type: all of the Libertas coins have upright axes (9 axes known), while all of the CONSECRATIO coins have inverted axes (8 axes known).

I think the die link between the two types makes it even more difficult to date and explain these Alexandrian denarii of Commodus!

Claes is willing to accept my assumption that the TR P XVII coins were struck during Commodus' lifetime, in 192, but the CONSECRATIO coins in spring 195, after Septimius consecrated Commodus. She thinks obverse dies (actually only one) of 192 might have been retained at the mint and then reused two and one-half years later. But why would the mint have saved an obverse die of Commodus, if, as I proposed, instructions had been received that Commodus was condemned and that the denarii prepared for his planned visit should be restruck as denarii of Pertinax? Also, since Alexandrian denarii of Pertinax are quite common, I had assumed that the "visit" issue of Commodus must also have been large, though only a small portion of it was spent before the visit, thus escaping remelting and partially surviving until today. It seems too much of a coincidence that some of that very small sample of Commodus denarii of 192 that survived happened to have been struck from the same obverse die that was preserved at the mint until 195 and then used to strike CONSECRATIO denarii of Commodus!

Another possibility: both types were struck in 195 after Commodus' consecration. In response, the Alexandrian denarius mint first merely copied two denarii of the living Commodus, one with BRIT title for the obverse and one with TR P XVII Libertas for the reverse, but a little later was instructed to change the reverse to CONSECRATIO. The change of die axis happened to occur at the same time, so the date of that change would have to be c. spring 195 rather than any earlier in the year. But this reconstruction isn't terribly compelling, and of course it leaves the large Alexandrian issue of denarii for Pertinax unexplained.

Curtis Clay

Offline nummis durensis

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2014, 09:59:24 am »
Another possibility:

The Consecratio-type was struck early in 193 after Commodus death... before or while the reign of Pertinax!


Offline curtislclay

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2014, 10:54:14 am »
It seems very unlikely that Alexandria, upon hearing of Commodus' assassination, made the mistake of assuming that he would be consecrated, so struck CONSECRATIO coins for him.

Much more likely: the Senate condemned Commodus on 1 Jan. 193, the day after his assassination. So Alexandria will have heard of these two events simultaneously, that Commodus had been assassinated, and that his memory had been condemned. There was no interval during which Alexandria had heard of Commodus' death only, and might have wrongly assumed that he was going to be consecrated.

So a Jan.-Feb. 193 date for the CONSECRATIO denarii seems extremely unlikely. As to the TR P XVII Libertas coins, what reason could Alexandria possibly have had for striking them early in 193?
Curtis Clay

Offline nummis durensis

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2014, 12:47:33 am »
1. Sure, Commodus Consecration in begin 195, but ask why only Alexandria struck coins on this... why not Rome (or Syria)?

2. Do you have an overview about the known coins of a) the LIBERTAS b) the CONSECRATIO ?

3. I think we cannot take the die axis for reliable dating. Look at the Pertinax denari... sometimes 6, sometimes 12 h

4. " the Senate condemned Commodus on 1 Jan. 193, the day after his assassination. So Alexandria will have heard of these two events simultaneously " why you are sure about this? Possible the have heard first about the death. Possible the could ignored the damnation.

5. " the Libertas coins come from three obverse and six reverse dies, while the CONSECRATIO coins come from one of the same obverse dies and one other, and from five reverse dies. "

" I had assumed that the "visit" issue of Commodus must also have been large, though only a small portion of it was spent before the visit, thus escaping remelting and partially surviving until today. "


LIBERTAS: 6 reverse dies - CONSECRATIO: 5 reverse dies
But both are very rare. I think some of both coins are remelting. But when the CONSECRATIO really strucked in 195.. what could be the reason to remelt this coins?

6. sorry for my bad english


Offline curtislclay

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2014, 08:56:10 pm »
4. " the Senate condemned Commodus on 1 Jan. 193, the day after his assassination. So Alexandria will have heard of these two events simultaneously " why you are sure about this? Possible they have heard first about the death. Possible they could have ignored the damnation.

Dio Cassius, Loeb pp. 123-5:

Having secured the support of the Praetorians, and before the news of Commodus' assassination had been made public, Pertinax came to the Senate house before dawn on 1 Jan. 193, where the Senate proclaimed him emperor. "In this way was Pertinax declared emperor and Commodus a public enemy, after both the senate and the populace had joined in shouting many bitter words against the latter."

So the news of Commodus' assassination must inevitably have been accompanied by the news of his condemnation by the Senate and Roman people, and of Pertinax' accession as emperor. These three events all took place within a span of 12 hours or less, and all three of them became known to the public at one and the same time, in the morning of 1 Jan. 193.
Curtis Clay

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2015, 02:03:31 pm »
I have been searching for one for many years. I have had to make do with a holed example but I am happy enough with it.

Martin

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2015, 02:31:28 pm »
Not the same die as mine but uses the R for B and P as does mine.  There is more to be learned about these.

Offline timka

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2017, 04:52:15 pm »
Hi!

Finally I obtained Alexandian denarius of Commodus too. Its condition could be better - the legends are hardly legible,... but nothing to complain, this type is really rare - I encountered it for the first time in 3 years. Needless to say, it was not attributed as Alexandrian, so it was a real deal this time.

Also, I believe that my coin has the same obverse die with Martin's coin

18mm - 2,5 g - 1h

Thanks much for starting this topic and disclosing such interesting and rare type.

Z.

Offline stevex6

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2017, 09:47:25 pm »
Cool OP-example, Doug ... wow, this is quite an old thread, eh? (2008 => I'm pretty sure that I was still  trying to finish-off my Dominion of Canada Bank Notes collection => seems like a coin-lifetime ago)

Ancient coins rock!! (I've never looked back)

 +++

I'm definitely gonna put one of those babies on my coin-target-list (ummm, but not at the tip-top)

Offline Ronald

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2017, 04:51:25 pm »
Commodus is great and a great denarius

Offline *Alex

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2017, 08:02:41 am »
Quote from: imperator on June 30, 2017, 04:51:25 pm
i like commodus/ but not that portret / thats not a commodus in my eyes

\RM TRP XVII i dont see them

It looks like Commodus to me and even my 70+ year old eyes are able to make out the TRP XVII on the reverse.

*Alex

Perhaps you were thinking of this Commodus;D

Offline Ronald

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2017, 11:32:25 am »
 This one is beter +++

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2018, 12:15:55 pm »
Finally have one without a hole. Same obverse die. Different reverse die.

Martin

Offline curtislclay

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2018, 12:38:26 pm »
Martin,

Weights and die axes of your two?

Holed one should have upright axis, judging from the position of the hole on the flan; new one too, because of the position of the flan fault at top.
Curtis Clay

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2018, 03:48:05 pm »
Certainly Curtis,
Holed coin - 3.44g. 17.52 mm. 0 degrees.
New coin - 2.60g. 17.69 mm. 0 degrees.
Regards,
Martin

Offline stevex6

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2018, 07:27:04 pm »
Martin, congrats on scoring your new unholy (non-holey) example

Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2018, 05:51:22 am »
Thanks Steve. I am just lucky that most dealers still don't recognise this as Alexandrian.

Offline stevex6

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Re: Commodus denarius
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2018, 10:19:35 am »
Congrats again ... yes, it is definitely a cool addition

 

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