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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  History and Archeology (Moderator: David Atherton)  |  Topic: Shroud of Turin 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Shroud of Turin  (Read 34170 times)
Robert_Brenchley
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« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2009, 04:55:49 am »

How do we know that beardless depictions of the Christ arent depictions of him in his youth? Wink

They could be, but more likely they represent the imagination of the artist! What would be interesting would be to compare bearded vs unbearded portraits with the social convention in the artist's context. There's a very long tradition of portraying Jesus as a member of the artist's culture, so that would be my first guess.
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« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2009, 05:09:31 am »

Also, the apparent lack of images for the first 200 years or so, was it due to doctrine that one can not have an image of God?

Please take into account the most early Christians (we can probably say "all Christians" up to the time when preaching to the Gentiles started to make a difference, but also significantly longer) did not consider themselves starters of a new religion. There is no evidence in the Bible, in my opinion (not only mine, by the way), that Jesus considered himself anything different than a Jew fully abiding to the Hebraic law. There is no reporting of the word "Christian" until ca. yr.150, if I remember correctly. Christians were almost unanimously considered a Jewish sect for the first two centuries of their existence as a community. In the community itself there was a strong argument between those who wanted to follow closely the Hebraic law and precepts, and those who thought it more fit to relax strict discipline in order to gain more appeal outside Jewish communities. So I think it is very likely that the absence of any representation of Christ's features in early Christianity is linked to the Hebraic ban on human images, but I think it is also difficult to prove it without a direct source of information. Take also into account that since the IV century and afterwards, when the Christian religion became state religion, extreme care was taken to remove any link between Christianity and Hebraism and to conceal the Hebraic origins of Christianity.

Regards, P.  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2009, 05:17:26 am »

I don't remember the details of what the New Scientist article said about it other than some negative connotations of long hair (not a beard) - I can't recall if it was specifically religious, or maybe just cultural. Apollonius wasn't from so far away - Tyana in what is now Asian Turkey, although he seems to have spent much of his time travelling in India and elsewhere.

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I'm not sure you're correct about negative connotations related to long hair.  Nazirites, who were dedicated to God for life never cut their hair.  Samson and (I think) John the Baptist are examples.

Hope this last part isn't off-topic and out of bounds, but I'm always a little amused by discussion trying to either prove or disprove the existence of God through science.  I don't think it can be done.  That's why it comes down to faith.  People can look at all sorts of "evidence" both scientific and not and reach their own conclusion which they believe or hope to be true, but I think that's as far as you can go until you die.  Then you'll know... or not... depending on the answer.
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« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2009, 05:19:21 am »

How do we know that beardless depictions of the Christ arent depictions of him in his youth? Wink

Well, for what it's worth, he was also depicted that way with the apostles (who are also depicted clean shaven):

http://www.religionfacts.com/jesus/image_gallery/350_christ_and_apostles_catacomb_domitilla.htm

Ben
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« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2009, 06:00:30 am »

How do we know that beardless depictions of the Christ arent depictions of him in his youth? Wink

Well, for what it's worth, he was also depicted that way with the apostles (who are also depicted clean shaven):

http://www.religionfacts.com/jesus/image_gallery/350_christ_and_apostles_catacomb_domitilla.htm

Ben



Exactly! Perhaps growing a beard was a cultural tradition or a sort of "right of passage" for males.  Most males can' t grow beards at a young age anyway (at least not long and thick beards as we would imagine older males to possess).

Best, Noah
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« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2009, 06:05:28 am »

Well, the likelihood that the shroud was that of Jesus was miniscule anyway (even if it did date to the time of Christ) considering that tens of thousands were crucified in the first century alone!  It should not matter to Christians anyway whether it was legit or not since it would not make one iota of difference in Christian belief of salvation.  It is just an object...period. 

Best, Noah


Ben, I actually posted earlier a similar observation to yours (above).

Best, Noah
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« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2009, 06:34:01 am »

True, but I fail to see how the age of the shroud, or even who it belonged to, has any bearing on the existence of God!

Ben


I fail to see how the age of the shroud, or even who it belonged to, has any bearing on the Roman persecution of Christians!  laugh

Or for that matter, the discovery of headless bodies in London!

Ben
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« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2009, 06:47:48 am »

Okay, I tried to split the Shroud of Turin discussion from the Persecution of the Early Christians to make it a bit easier to follow. If anyone feels I butchered the topic, my apologies.

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« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2009, 09:22:38 am »

Thank you David.
I recommend an extremely well researched book titled "The Resurrection of the Shroud, New Scientific, Medical, and Archelogical Evidence", by Mark Antonacci, 2000. Skeptics will be horrified by his conclusions in the final chapter, but the earlier chapters have extremely detailed and helpful sources, photos and digital analyses as to the Shroud.  Joe
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« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2009, 11:49:58 am »

Wow, my shroud of Turin comment that got all of this started was only meant as an example to another comment.  Oh well, I don't mind since this is an interesting topic as well.

Best, Noah
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« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2009, 12:02:41 pm »

Skeptics will be horrified by his conclusions in the final chapter

I wouldn't label people who might be horrified at it somehow being proved authentic as skeptics unless that's some coded usage of the word as opposed to it's normal usage.

I myself am skeptical because common sense says that it's very unlikely to be real. There used to be wholesale fabrication of relics... someone once said that if you assembled all existing fragments of the true cross you'd have enough wood to build an ark!

More importantly there is no known chain of ownership to tie it back to Jesus or anyone of that era, nor any early references indicating that anyone was ever aware of the existence of such a preeminant grail-like artifact! Even if a 1st century date could be established it'd not be any indication of identity (it would just discount theories of it being a more recent fake).

Finally, it is rather suspicious that the face on the shroud looks like the artistic tradition that later developed following those early short-haired clean-shaven depictions. It would better speak to authenticity if the shroud image matched early depictions rather than later ones!

However, this all said, I'd certainly not be horrified if it could somehow be proved authentic. It'd be fascinating that such an artifact had been kept secret for so long!

Ben
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« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2009, 02:55:52 pm »

Also, the apparent lack of images for the first 200 years or so, was it due to doctrine that one can not have an image of God?

Please take into account the most early Christians (we can probably say "all Christians" up to the time when preaching to the Gentiles started to make a difference, but also significantly longer) did not consider themselves starters of a new religion. There is no evidence in the Bible, in my opinion (not only mine, by the way), that Jesus considered himself anything different than a Jew fully abiding to the Hebraic law. There is no reporting of the word "Christian" until ca. yr.150, if I remember correctly. Christians were almost unanimously considered a Jewish sect for the first two centuries of their existence as a community. In the community itself there was a strong argument between those who wanted to follow closely the Hebraic law and precepts, and those who thought it more fit to relax strict discipline in order to gain more appeal outside Jewish communities. So I think it is very likely that the absence of any representation of Christ's features in early Christianity is linked to the Hebraic ban on human images, but I think it is also difficult to prove it without a direct source of information. Take also into account that since the IV century and afterwards, when the Christian religion became state religion, extreme care was taken to remove any link between Christianity and Hebraism and to conceal the Hebraic origins of Christianity.

Regards, P.  Smiley

It may be that we don't have early images of Jesus because the church at the time was so small that it didn't leave any that survived. It grew slowly, but it's only in the 3rd Century that it became important.

You're absolutely right that not one of the New Testament writers ever suggests that they're starting a new religion, rather, they're reforming an old one. It's only as the two drift apart that the Christians start to see themselves as a distinct faith.

the earliest mention of the word 'Christian' is in the Book of Acts; the believers in Antoioch 'were first called Christians' (XRISTIANOUS). We can't, of course, be sure that whether this really happened at the time Luke is writing about, or whether he's being anachronistic.

If Acts was a standalone document, I'd have no problem with it as a mid-2nd Century work, but it's closely linked with Luke's Gospel, and I can't see that as later than the end of the 1st Century, or at the latest the beginning of the 2nd. Michael Goulder, my New Testament tutor, was happy with the commonly accepted date for the Gospel around 90 AD, and there were no flies on him!
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Robert Brenchley

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« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2009, 03:03:12 pm »

Not archaeology.  Not art.  Not numismatics.  How, then, not off limits for this Discussion BoardPat L.
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« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2009, 03:11:25 pm »

I thought it is archeology and history.
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« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2009, 08:54:05 am »

Not archaeology.  Not art.  Not numismatics.  How, then, not off limits for this Discussion BoardPat L.

This is unfortunately one of those sensitive subjects that could attract trolling buzzards to your messageboard community and set about using it to divide its members. Sad

I have seen something similar happen on another message board a few years ago, on this very same topic, which is why I was a bit anti when I saw it emege in the discussion on the Roman Persecution of Christians.
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« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2009, 02:27:24 pm »

I don't see anything wrong as long as we can have a sensible discussion without letting dogmatism creep in. So far we have.
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« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2009, 05:24:45 pm »

Here is another link, to a quite readable and balanced description via a color PDF file of where "Shroud" research is about now:

http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/index1.html

Joe

P.S. I remain most convinced it is at least 1400 years old, and is an image of an actual, crucified man, complete with real blood, wounds etc. No matter who it is, it is quite astounding. I'd love to see it. I believe I have to wait until 2025, the next public viewing. Anyone on Forvm want to go?  Smiley

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« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2009, 06:44:47 am »

How do we know that beardless depictions of the Christ arent depictions of him in his youth? Wink

Well, for what it's worth, he was also depicted that way with the apostles (who are also depicted clean shaven):

http://www.religionfacts.com/jesus/image_gallery/350_christ_and_apostles_catacomb_domitilla.htm

Ben


Exactly! Perhaps growing a beard was a cultural tradition or a sort of "right of passage" for males.  Most males can' t grow beards at a young age anyway (at least not long and thick beards as we would imagine older males to possess).

Best, Noah

This clean shaven portrait may have something to do with Roman tradition (or fashion !) of the 4th century ? Romans would have expected their new idol to look like a Roman ?

Until Constantine, a bearded portrait on coins was very common. Early coins of Constantine depict him with a beard. The later coins of the Constantinian era are without beard. Then came Julian.. But there are at least 60-80 years of non-bearded emperor portraits on coins !

Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2009, 04:47:51 am »

"Death certificate" imprinted on the shroud:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6925371.ece
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« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2009, 06:33:14 am »

"Death certificate" imprinted on the shroud:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6925371.ece
I bought Frale's book last Friday when it first appeared in the stores and am currently reading it. I was attracted by it (even though I've always been extremely sceptical about the authenticity of the Shroud) because I'm familiar with her works on the Templars which are very competent and serious - unlike 99% of the stuff published on the Templars which is unmitigated garbage.
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« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2009, 11:20:48 am »

Best link I've seen on this perpetual publicity stunt: http://www.shroud.com/latebrak.htm
The subject has just had its annual beating to death on Classics-L, too.
I wrote my usual note on the radically bad theology of attention to relics.
Pat L.
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« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2009, 07:48:06 am »

Paul of Tarsus

 1 Corinthians 11:14 (53 to 57 AD)

Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him
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« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2009, 03:56:45 pm »

That letter relates to Corinth. Without suggesting for a moment that the shroud is anything but medieval, do we know what length hair was common for men in 1st Century Galilee?
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« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2009, 11:34:43 pm »

That letter relates to Corinth. Without suggesting for a moment that the shroud is anything but medieval, do we know what length hair was common for men in 1st Century Galilee?

I assume that Paul was not  talking about a local costume or hairstyle for Greek corinthian people,But   he was emphasizing a general "masculine" common sense from his own perspective, about how "appropriate" the first century male figure should be.

it's highly unlikely that 1st century Galileans-Includind Jesus-  had ((long hair)),otherwise this letter would have sent a hidden insult to the living disciples (Peter,James and maybe others).

Ofcourse Jesus was not bald ,and  he did have hair:

Mark 14:4 ((She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head.))

But it's highly probable  that it was short,unlike early medieval art depictions.
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Mural painting from the catacomb of Commodilla.

 One of the first Long hair- bearded images of Jesus, late 4th century
Jesus is depicted here with a Roman Toga and a senatorial Tunica !
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« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2009, 11:49:30 pm »

Popular Mechanics had an interesting article about what Christ might have looked like as a first century Jew from Galilee. It was the cover story in the December 2002 edition of the magazine. Using modern forensics, the reconstructed a face of what a common Galilean may have looked like: dark skin, short, curly hair, etc.  I found the article on line at:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/1282186.html

Here's the picture:
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