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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Aitnacoins Notorious or Not? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Aitnacoins Notorious or Not?  (Read 7860 times)
Joe Sermarini
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« on: June 24, 2009, 07:39:37 pm »

Aitnacoins is very unhappy about being on the Notorious list.  From CDFL and Forgery Network it seems that he has sold a few fakes.  He does use private auctions, which makes him look like a fraud.   I have looked at his current store listings and recent eBay listings.  It is not at all clear to me that he has sold many fakes or that he should be on the Notorious Fake Sellers list.  If you think he belongs on the list, please tell me why. 
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« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2009, 12:45:17 am »

Here at board exists six threads with evidences.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=54189.0
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=53977.0
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=53928.0
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=51798.0
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=53566.0
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=45021
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2009, 01:52:39 am »

Yes, i have read that he his unhappy about this and been argueing his case, I have always thought that if a seller isnt very good at identifying fakes then he has a obligation to his customers to have his coins regularly checked out by someone that can spot them. Whether he is selling them on purpose i think is debateable, and IMHO i tend to think not. However the fact remains that unfortunately he has listed fake coins, enough for plenty of people to question him, which in itself is enough not to recommend him as a reliable seller. Its a shame if this is through ignorance rather than deception but the fault does rest with him, since like I said he has a obligation to his customers which could be recitified but has NOT been. And lets face it its not like its just been one or two mistakes. However saying all this, it might be a thought, although probably not feesable, to allow a review, or give a fake seller who insists on their innocence, a time span of maybe a year to get their act together, and get inplace a system that wont allow fakes to slip through, then maybe they could be removed from the list. At the end of the day there are plenty of sellers that know their jobs and don't sell fakes, like your good self. So I think they should stay on the list, for now.
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2009, 02:19:41 am »

I agree.
This is not a case of fakes of low-grade denarii slipping through.
These are coins that would be very valueable if real and anybody selling these coins should
educate themselves before they do so.

It's just like the Saxby case, what difference does it make to the buyer whether it's
an amazing degree of incompetece or fraud? If no steps are taken to rectify the situation there is no practical difference in my opinion.

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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2009, 03:35:15 am »

He has been quite vehement in defending his coins. He sent us countless emails, mostly in Italian, but we had trouble finding many of the adjectives in our dictionary so there were communication issues... Cry I believe he is honest and that he trusts his Sicilian source without questions. Maybe there are problems at the source that he needs to address.  Notwithstanding my affiliation to FORVM, and just speaking like a regular coin collector and buyer I would say that his Greek silver offerings on ebay are let's say genuinely suspicious. With all the talk and the repeated accusation, he has earned notoriety indeed.
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 04:03:38 am »

In this topic: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=53928.0 are two twinned syracusian tetradrachmes which was sold both by aitnacoins within one-year distance.
Two twinned Katane: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=51798.0
Same case - one was sold one year before offering another.
Can it be "honest mistake" ?
I have very big doubt.
Also i'm give one comment for cast fake "cloned" 16-litrae, which he sold to me. This "coin" can be  absolutely easy identified at hands. No chance for "mistake".
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2009, 05:29:36 am »

This seller has a variety of methods of sourcing his coins. Quite a few of the recent offerings have been bought from a major European ebay seller and then resold for profit.
I find many of his offerings to be doubtful and there are some clear cases of high end duplicates. Many fake sellers mix their fakes with legitimate coins but still warrant their position on the list. It might be an idea to add a comment to his entry on the list explaining his complaint and perhaps also pointing to some of the threads discussed above.
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2009, 07:28:57 am »

I am still inclined to take Aitnacoins off the list and let us inform him if he lists a fake and see if he removes it.  We have a few examples of fakes he has sold but we know that every dealer makes mistakes.  We seem to have evidence he experimented with patina at least once.  But that is really not enough to go on the list.  If the number of fakes is high, I have not seen them.  Post them here.  Talk is one thing, examples another. 

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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 07:40:13 am »

Joe,
That is fine. I will be keeping a close eye on his offerings to see if any more fakes appear.
Martin
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romeo
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2009, 08:21:47 am »

I dont want to annoy anyone, and i guess it really dosen't matter what i think, but i will say it anyway, surely the above arguement could be used for a number of sellers on the fake list? I have just been re-examining the threads listed above (plenty of them by the way, enough evidence that any court in the land would don their black cap) and his excuses seem like the same excuses any dealer would make, being desperate to save their business and avoid the dreaded list. Im sure saxby could argue the same and has been caught out as far as i can see only roughly the same number of times.
Having said that, apart from it really being none of my business lol, I agree someone should be examined very carefully indeed before being on the list, since after all this is their livelihood and have most likely got families dependant on the income, and when dealing with hundreds of coins, to examine close up and to compare all the time to other coins, although being part of the job, would surely be open to mistakes. The very nature of this is, say out of 1000 coins that pass through your hands, you miss 3, then you can have 3 fake reports against you and your reputation could be in trouble, and hence your business. Saying that other dealers manage I suppose. I believe in a fair chance to everyone, and a second, third or fourth chance etc especially where there are jobs on the line and i also believe in firm justice for those taking advantage of others. Its so plain to see the sellers that nearly every coin is a fake, and yes the book should be thrown at the them, but I think if a dealer makes several mistakes which could well be the case here, then a chance should be given to rectify and whenever they do 'accidently' sell a fake notice should be closely taken how they deal with it. This after sales care reflects so much on what a dealers real motives are.
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2009, 08:34:45 am »

I am still inclined to take Aitnacoins off the list and let us inform him if he lists a fake and see if he removes it.  We have a few examples of fakes he has sold but we know that every dealer makes mistakes.  We seem to have evidence he experimented with patina at least once.  But that is really not enough to go on the list.  If the number of fakes is high, I have not seen them.  Post them here.  Talk is one thing, examples another. 



"Some fakes"Huh?
Wow, within one year he sold (or offered) fake coins within total value more than 50.000EUR.
All of them was very valuable types of coins, most of them - really dangerous.
So, aitnacoins is much more dangerous than anyone another cheater from "blacklist".
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2009, 09:12:19 am »

"Some fakes"Huh?
Wow, within one year he sold (or offered) fake coins within total value more than 50.000EUR.
All of them was very valuable types of coins, most of them - really dangerous.
So, aitnacoins is much more dangerous than anyone another cheater from "blacklist".

Don't just tell me, show me.   Don't just put up a bunch of photos of his coins that you think are fake without saying why you think they are fake.  If you put up photos explain why.   I am asking for evidence, not your estimate of value with nothing to back it up.     
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2009, 09:24:55 am »

Zero coins currently listed.
The VAST majority of sold items are listed as "privat" and a picture of the items can't be viewed.
Hmmm.
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2009, 09:30:02 am »

Don't just tell me, show me.   Don't just put up a bunch of photos of his coins that you think are fake without saying why you think they are fake.  If you put up photos explain why.   I am asking for evidence, not your estimate of value with nothing to back it up.     

Many of them exist at Board.
What's about Naxos didrachm, Joe?
You was agree, what it's fake: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=53566.0
This 8000EUR value fake still offered at his site: http://aitnacoins.eu/
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 09:39:26 am »

oooo, that is and everything else i have read and seen, not just on this board, is quite damning evidence to be honest, and anitacoins responses seem fairly rude too. although it does seem xintaris75 has a vendetta to nail this seller?
romeo
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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 10:11:25 am »

For the Naxos didrachm: First he has offered this coin on ebay without Certifate of Authenticity , after the massive protest on CDFL and here in Forum, he has included a certificate in the Description and least he has the same coin without certificate on his web-site Huh This steps are very Suspicious to me.

If someone has a very expensive coin and has a certifacate of Authenticity for this coin why didn't tell the buyers for the first moment?? Huh

Finally, why all the Bronze coins have all the same yellowish patina and why, all are bronze from Sicily(most expensive greek bronze coins) and not another greek bronze?


I think here are  too  much questions, which must answered first , and then if so, must  aitnacoins removed  for the list, not before! 
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 11:51:36 am »

I am fairly fluent in Italian however not Sicilian.  If you'd like I can take a look at his emails.
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2009, 11:52:35 am »

What's about Naxos didrachm, Joe?
You was agree, what it's fake: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=53566.0
This 8000EUR value fake still offered at his site: http://aitnacoins.eu/

My exact words, "I think fake."  That is not the same as saying it IS fake.   
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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2009, 11:53:47 am »

Quote from: Silenus on June 25, 2009, 10:11:25 am
For the Naxos didrachm: First he has offered this coin on ebay without Certifate of Authenticity , after the massive protest on CDFL and here in Forum, he has included a certificate in the Description and least he has the same coin without certificate on his web-site Huh This steps are very Suspicious to me...

Certificates of Authenticity are meaningless. 
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2009, 11:56:29 am »

Quote from: Titus Pullo on June 25, 2009, 11:51:36 am
I am fairly fluent in Italian however not Sicilian.  If you'd like I can take a look at his emails.

I think we have understood what we need to understand.  Thanks.
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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2009, 02:49:21 pm »

Joe, as they say, history repeats itself, and despite your occasional gruffness on the boards, you do try and see the good side of people sometimes.  I seem to remember you arguing that Saxby's should be given a chance after they argued many times about their innocence, and look where they are now.
Obviously I shouldn't judge each potential fakes seller by the actions of another I know, however you have to admit the MO does look familiar.
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2009, 07:41:26 pm »

I think there should be two lists.  List A should identify scoundrels and scammers -- the dangerous criminals who we should steer clear of all the time.  List B should identify dealers who are honest but incompetent (at least in some areas) -- people who sell real coins but make a lot of mistakes.
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2009, 08:57:18 pm »

I am not going to judge the competence of other dealers. 
Quote from: Obryzum on June 25, 2009, 07:41:26 pm
I think there should be two lists.  List A should identify scoundrels and scammers -- the dangerous criminals who we should steer clear of all the time.  List B should identify dealers who are honest but incompetent (at least in some areas) -- people who sell real coins but make a lot of mistakes.

There is a clear line between fraud and honest.  There is no clear line between competent and incompetent.  I don't want to attempt to judge that.
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2009, 01:30:13 am »

Quote from: Silenus on June 25, 2009, 10:11:25 am
Finally, why all the Bronze coins have all the same yellowish patina and why, all are bronze from Sicily (most expensive greek bronze coins) and not another greek bronze?
A  headline in Fake Ancient Coin Reports:
"Not every coin with an artificial patina is a forgery, but it is an indicator. In any case an artificial patina is a FAKE patina."
Many of these Sicily bronze, part of them  look as genuine, are strongly tooled.

The problem is that, in contrast to "crying fakes",  it is more difficult to prove that "dangerous fakes" are fakes.
The existence of multiple "incarnations" is a crucial argument.

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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2009, 01:51:27 am »

There is a clear line between fraud and honest.  There is no clear line between competent and incompetent.  I don't want to attempt to judge that.

I think I was a little rash in my choice of words.  What I meant to say is that there are some dealers who sell a lot of fakes (or sometimes exclusively fake coins), and based on the circumstances (private auctions, refusal to cancel auctions even when presented with evidence, etc.)  there is reason to believe that they are doing so intentionally.  There is another category of cyberspace dealers who sell a lot of fake coins, but it not clear whether they are doing so intentionally.  I am referring to dealers who are not well known in the numismatic community and who make a lot of mistakes -- not the occasional mistake from an established dealer.   I am thinking of people like Saxby.  The guy sells a lot of Byzantine coins, but his attributions are frequently wrong.  He also sells a lot of fake Byzantine coins.  Because his attributions are wrong so often, I wonder whether the guy is a fraud, or if he just doesn't know much about Byzantine coins.  Whether he acts intentionally or not, he makes enough mistakes that I think that his store should be on a list somewhere, if for no other reason than to advise buyers that maybe they should get a second opinion first.  There may be a clear line between fraud and honest, but for some fake sellers I am not sure which side of the line they are on.
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