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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Uncleaned Ancient Coins  |  Uncleaned Ancient Coin Discussion (Moderator: bruce61813)  |  Topic: Gringott's Mixes 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Joe Sermarini
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« on: June 06, 2009, 02:28:12 pm »

Forum now carries Gringott's #1 (long-term soak and bronze disease treatment), Gringott's #2 (boil and soak for hard dirt and clay), and Gringott's Conservator (stronger boil and soak for hard dirt and clay). 
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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2009, 07:47:06 pm »

hi,

is Conservator only for hard clay and dirt and not for harder green stuff?

thanks
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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2009, 07:53:45 pm »

Harder green stuff is called patina and we don't want to remove it.  I don't understand your question. 
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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2009, 09:41:06 pm »

So that's what they are...you mean I stripped all my coins to shiny yellow/orange for nothing?

Sarcasm is strong today Wink

Not all hard green stuff is patina(or desirable patina if you will)

Things such as the aftermath of corrosion, hard bumpy green encrustations, or partial green encrustations on coins with does not have other patinas.(like the Gallenius coin in a previous post)

Question is a soak in Conservator mix will soften those as well...

Thanks Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2009, 09:53:26 pm »

Even if it is undesirable, bumpy, or partial, as far as I know, all green hard stuff IS still patina.  What you call the aftermath of corrosion, I call patina.  I believe Gringott's is intended not to harm patina, so it will not help you remove undesirable patina.

I believe lye removes patina.  I have experimented with it only once, years ago, so I cannot advise on using it. 
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2009, 02:42:36 pm »

If it is a hard green , it is malachite and you want to keep it. If it is soft, such that you can scratch it with your finger nail or a bamboo skewer then it is very suspect, especially if it very pale green or green blue.

Other than BD treatment, you need not boil the coins, but I would use a pad under the coins. the pad can be made from the green scrubbing pads. If you boil one of these, they get softer and thicker, but they last and the solution can get to all side of the coins. An old coffee maker works fine, especially for long soaks. Put something over the top to keep the water from evaporating, or keep adding water to keep the concentration constant.

Gringgotts cleaners were designed for working with hard clay and general mud that has hardened over time. It does little for lime based deposits, but it does not harm the metal of the coins.

Lye is a commercial grade of NaOH, sodium hydroxide, it is a strong base and has a high pH number, so it has little effect on lime. For lime you need an acid, the real problem is that acid does not do well with copper based metals.

Thank you Joe and Forum for adding the cleaners to the Catalogue.

Bruce
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2009, 07:43:40 pm »

Hi Bruce,

Thank your for your answers.  BTW, how often would you recommand changing out the solution for mix #1 for long term soaks?

Thanks
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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2009, 07:57:45 pm »

Ave!

Hi Bruce,

Thank your for your answers.  BTW, how often would you recommand changing out the solution for mix #1 for long term soaks?

Thanks

Once a week seems to work fine for me.

Best,

Kevin
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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2009, 08:52:39 pm »

Kevin has it right for long term soaks.

But if you are dealing with BD, scrub he coins at least daily, and change the solution once every 48 hours, do this twice ,  so twice in 4 days, and them a weeks soak. The idea is to dissolve the deeply embedded chlorides, that is also the reason for the scrubbing and heated mixture.

Bruce
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2009, 11:43:48 am »

I once had a coin that had no patina whatsoever apart from disfiguring masses of hard green everywhere. I assume it had already been stripped, and whever did it gave up at that point. I got the green off with white vinegar and toothbrushing, but I wouldn't recommend it for general use. Patina is good, apart from the odd case.
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2010, 02:06:15 pm »

Harder green stuff is called patina and we don't want to remove it.  I don't understand your question. 

Ah, not so Joe. Often it's the case that the soft green patina is what will invariably disappear when you don't want it to, and the hard green deposits, much like the smell of old fish or an unwelcome guest, will remain despite the liberal application of one's finest air fresheners or poisons.

Take this humble bronze for instance. A customer asked for me to clean the coin, as he thought the green deposits were rather unsightly. So, despite the little voice in my head that shouted "No! Don't do it!" the good old English tradition of 'the customer is always right' prevailed, and so, telling the little voice to shut up or get out, I went down to the shed to fetch my pickaxe, battery acid, hammer and chisel.
The end result was the removal of the green stuff (malachite I assume) but the preservation of the original, toned surface and much of the pleasant light green layer that had deposited itself on the coin. It even turned out that there was a little bit of silvering left.

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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2010, 05:03:27 pm »

I suppose it would help if I posted the picture, wouldn't it...  Tongue

Anway, goes to show that mechanical cleaning is far better at removing the hard green encrustations. You retain greater control than with a chemical process.
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2010, 05:25:03 pm »

Hoard coins are sometimes encrusted with green deposits from other coins.  Those you can usually remove and improve the coin. 

I emphasis the most basic and simple rules because a lot of new collectors learn here.   There are exceptions to every rule.  They will figure out the exceptions in time but the more we emphasis the basic rules the better off they will be.  Sure, I have bottles of vinegar, Calgon, muriatic acid, and lots of other chemicals.  I almost never use them on bronze. 
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« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2010, 12:19:12 pm »

So far I have read close to 400 posts on here in both the cleaning of ancients and using a zapper....my question?Huh
May sound dumb to many of you..but we are just learning and need help sometimes...
Can anyone tell me how to tell a silvered or silver coin when you first start cleaning so you know which of the 100 different methods of cleaning there is out there..I have tried the soaking and brushing method, the boiling with calgon the boiling with Gringotts, the soaking with olive oil, and also the zapper method after soaking... plus several more methods...anytime I see a method I try it on a coin......I and my wife love this hobby and just want to do whats right for the best possible effect on the mysteries of art of ancient coins....but none I have run across yet have told us how to clean a silver or silvered coin without damaging...or how to know its silvered or silver before tackling the cleaning?
Can anyone advise please?
Thanks
Elmer Chick
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« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2010, 01:57:37 pm »

So far I have read close to 400 posts on here in both the cleaning of ancients and using a zapper....my question?Huh
May sound dumb to many of you..but we are just learning and need help sometimes...
Can anyone tell me how to tell a silvered or silver coin when you first start cleaning so you know which of the 100 different methods of cleaning there is out there..I have tried the soaking and brushing method, the boiling with calgon the boiling with Gringotts, the soaking with olive oil, and also the zapper method after soaking... plus several more methods...anytime I see a method I try it on a coin......I and my wife love this hobby and just want to do whats right for the best possible effect on the mysteries of art of ancient coins....but none I have run across yet have told us how to clean a silver or silvered coin without damaging...or how to know its silvered or silver before tackling the cleaning?
Can anyone advise please?
Thanks
Elmer Chick

Plain old long soaks in DW and brushing will eventually lead you to weather it is silver or silvered in a safe way and if there are big ol green or red spots on it that is always and indication that it is bronze underneath or it is impure silver, also certain types of coins are less likely to be silver like late empire coins.
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2010, 05:46:53 am »

Are Gringott's mixes safe for lead?  I have an encrusted object that has both bronze and lead elements and was hoping to use a Gringott's mix as a first step at cleaning it.

Thanks,
Greg
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2012, 08:34:13 am »

hi,

is Conservator only for hard clay and dirt and not for harder green stuff?

thanks
To a very large extent, yes. Clay is a very fine mixture of mineral particles bound by organic material. The stronger base reactions dissolve the organic material over time. That is why the lye based cleaners work better for really hard clay.

I forgot to answer the question about how often to change the #1 solution during a long soak. I would change it after 24 hours, or two scrubbings of the coin, then 48 or 72 hours. the initial soaking will dissolve a large portion of the chlorides, but more will be released as the protective covering is removed. You only need 4ounces at one time for a coin, so changing it is not expensive. I have found that a covered container, to reduce evaporation and mild heat improves performance. A small glass or plastic jar sitting on a radiator would do.


Bruce
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