Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. STORE WIDE SALE!!! 10% OFF EVERYTHING!!! WE ARE OPEN AND SHIPPING!!! We Are Working From Home, Social Distancing, Wearing Masks, And Sanitizing To Pack Orders!!! Please Call Us If You Have Questions 252-646-1958 Welcome Guest. Please login or register. STORE WIDE SALE!!! 10% OFF EVERYTHING!!! WE ARE OPEN AND SHIPPING!!! We Are Working From Home, Social Distancing, Wearing Masks, And Sanitizing To Pack Orders!!! Please Call Us If You Have Questions 252-646-1958


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Probus Hoard 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2  All Go Down Print
Author Topic: Probus Hoard  (Read 5587 times)
Minos
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 628



« on: May 30, 2009, 10:03:20 am »

Saw this on a french forum, don't know if I should post it here since these pics come from another dealer site but for the greater interests of numismatic nobody should mind, I guess (just delete the post if it's a problem).

According to the story, they were offered a bag of 1000 of these Probus (and Carus) ants, "uncleaned", struck from only 5 different die pairs (see pics) in something like "zamac". Quite dangerous since the style is good (struck with original dies?).

Look for them at your favorite "burglarian" store Grin
Logged
berserkrro
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 388


« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2009, 09:57:13 am »

A fast search and find that zamac is one of the best alloys for centrifugal casting. That explains why these coins are so well done. Zamac comes from zinc, aluminium, magnesium and copper - kupfer in german. So maybe they are done based on an combination of some dies using spin casting. That involves an expensive process that is profitable only for a certain number of products. 1000 coins seem to be a good number.
Logged
Anachoret
Praetorian
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 36


« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2009, 10:55:37 am »

If there are so many examples, they can be compared, and if all details will be repeated, casting will be obvious in one moment. On the contrary, if there are no links in details (flans, dotrings, cracks, ets.) - they are not cast, from one form at least
Logged
Potator II
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1644


Error communis facit jus


WWW
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2009, 11:01:31 am »

Yes but even though they are identical, presented separately they will be difficult to spot.

Thanks Minos, for pointing that out
Potator
Logged

Anachoret
Praetorian
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 36


« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2009, 11:13:12 am »

Yes but even though they are identical, presented separately they will be difficult to spot.

Thanks Minos, for pointing that out
Potator
But it is absolutely unreasonable to place such lot.  These suspicious links if they exist will become obvious very soon even if the coins will be offered separately. Fakemaker would not act so.
AND:  Everybody can ask this dealer to present some photos of one-dies coins, 4-5 will be enough to compare and confirm or reject such suspicion.
Logged
Diokl
Auxiliary

Offline Offline

Posts: 2


WWW
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2009, 11:31:52 am »

Quote from: IVLIANVS on June 01, 2009, 11:13:12 am

Fakemaker would not act so

Yes. Not likely.
Logged
Potator II
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1644


Error communis facit jus


WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2009, 11:39:34 am »

Quote from: IVLIANVS on June 01, 2009, 11:13:12 am
Yes but even though they are identical, presented separately they will be difficult to spot.

Thanks Minos, for pointing that out
Potator
But it is absolutely unreasonable to place such lot.  These suspicious links if they exist will become obvious very soon even if the coins will be offered separately. Fakemaker would not act so.
AND:  Everybody can ask this dealer to present some photos of one-dies coins, 4-5 will be enough to compare and confirm or reject such suspicion.

I can't tell in their place, but maybe those people are so much self confident that they imaggine others will be either completely dumb or accomplice

Potator
Logged

areich
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8765



WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2009, 11:41:22 am »

Quote from: IVLIANVS on June 01, 2009, 11:13:12 am

Fakemaker would not act so

Yes. Not likely.

But someone apparently did.
Logged

Andreas Reich
Anachoret
Praetorian
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 36


« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2009, 11:57:59 am »

I can't tell in their place, but maybe those people are so much self confident that they imaggine others will be either completely dumb or accomplice

Potator
It is almost improbable. Visible quality of these coins demonstrates talent of maker (if they are fakes).. Presence of talent is difficultly combining with "those people are so much self confident", with naivety of layman
Logged
Minos
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 628



« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2009, 03:19:29 pm »

From what I understand these have been struck, so considering variations from one to another (within a type), combined with the fact that they were "uncleaned" (see before cleaning pics below), they could go through in bulk if not inspected thoroughly. For the forgers trying to sell them it shouldn't matter if, once cleaned or on the market, they are spotted easily, their interest reside before that.
Logged
maridvnvm
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4225



« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2009, 03:50:18 am »

And now they have started to appear on ebay.
I will have fun adding the fake reports on these.
Martin
Logged
maridvnvm
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4225



« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2009, 03:53:29 am »

Those sold within minutes of being listed so the seller then added the following coins.
Regards,
Martin
Logged
Numerianus
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1184

I love this forum!


« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2009, 04:15:18 am »

Martin, do you think that these fakes are dangerous?
Logged
maridvnvm
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4225



« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2009, 04:36:38 am »

They have created some interesting types and people are buying them. In isolation, away from the knowledge that many of these exist then people will buy them.  They do not look right, they have a somewhat plastic look to them but people are still buying them in much the same way that people buy casts of Lipanoff fakes and bought the cast coins from batibaleno. I would not have fallen for them but many will. So it all depends upon what you mean by dangerous.
Regards,
Martin
Logged
Joe Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM STAFF
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 10235


All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2009, 06:45:29 am »

They will only be dangerous when it is one of them in a collection of nice coins.  Then it might slip by unnoticed, but probably not for very long. 
Logged

Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Numerianus
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1184

I love this forum!


« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2009, 09:58:39 am »

To be honest, I am not happy with these antoniniani. They are cheap coins and nevertheless
copied in quantities. Indeed, they are slightly soft but sometimes real silvered antoniniani has such
a surface. Somehow the surface also looks quite deceiving: partially silvered with traces of corrosion...
I must say that they can slip easily to collections (I agree with Martin), surely not in a good one.
So, does everybody believe that thay are struck from transfered dies? 
If someone could produce these, why not others...
Logged
maridvnvm
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4225



« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2009, 11:09:09 am »

They do not share flan shapes and thus do not exhibit that facet of casts that we use so easily to detect modern casts. If they have been struck from transfer dies then I have never seen the originals that they are based on. The four Probus coins are all unlisted for various reasons, the PROVIDENTIA AVG being an unlisted coin from Siscia and the others are simply unlisted variations from Rome which in itself isn't that unusual. I think they have used a mix of obverse dies and reverse dies to create unlisted coins in order to increase their appeal. The style is too good (I can recognise the mints from the bust styles) to be modern hand crafted dies and so must be based on original coins somewhere down the line.
Just some initial rambling thoughts.
Martin
Logged
maridvnvm
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4225



« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2009, 11:22:00 am »

The second batch of coins sold within 3 hours of being listed on ebay at 20 Euros per coin.
Ho hum.
Martin
Logged
Minos
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 628



« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2009, 11:54:01 am »

They were asking 5 Euros/coin to the dealer referred above, good profit on a less than minimal investment Roll Eyes
Logged
maridvnvm
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4225



« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2009, 02:16:00 pm »

AnotI have spotted another batch coming through someone who sells batches of uncleaned coins in 50/100/500 qty. These have been cleaned and being sold individually.

It could be that they are salting the uncleaned lots with them to these guys or are offering them through the people who regularly buy uncleaned coins.

The PROVIDENTIA (last coin) shows some interesting marks from what I take to be the flan preparation.

I have not created new fake reports for this batch.

Regards,
Martin
Logged
Ryan C
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 597

FESTINA LENTE


« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2009, 08:47:17 pm »

Guess I will just stick to easily authenticated bronze Concordia Militvm run of the mill Probus coins to fill my collection, I am so spooked by the proliferation of fake denarri and antoninani that I hardly trust anyone except forvm( although I bid on a coin on the forvm auction and was contacted later buy the seller saying his coin was discovered fake and therefore took it out of the auction, thank you know who)amd a few others that I have had good dealings with. What if the copies get so good that these good dealers start getting taken, or am I being paranoid? I hate forgers! I will be posting a fake report you won't believe as soon as I am sure of it, this will blow your minds!
Logged

Ryan Collins, happy member of the Forvm.
Minos
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 628



« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2009, 07:48:51 am »

Some more of these closing soon on ebite, items # 260428294780 and  260428298743. Don't forget to look at the other offerings of this seller...
Logged
Joe Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM STAFF
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 10235


All Coins Guaranteed for Eternity.


WWW
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2009, 11:44:57 am »

To all the paranoid people.  These are not great fakes.  These are typical junk fakes.  Take a deep breath and stay off eBay
Logged

Joseph Sermarini
Owner, President
FORVM ANCIENT COINS
Minos
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 628



« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2009, 12:14:04 pm »

The more there are, the uglier they get. Their dies are getting worn rapidly Smiley
Logged
maridvnvm
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
IMPERATOR
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4225



« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2009, 03:20:41 pm »

I agree with Joe that these are not particularly dangerous but it is worth being aware of them.
I suspect the following coin belongs to the same family. I haven't seen any more that match it yet but is came from someone selling the others above and it shares many of the same characteristics.
What do you reckon?
I will be watching out to see ifI see some more, which will allow me to prove my theory.
Regards,
Martin
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coins and Notorious Fake Sellers (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Probus Hoard « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 1.475 seconds with 71 queries.
All coins are guaranteed for eternity
zoom.asp