Russian wire questions

[dougsmit]

I seek help in understanding Russian wire coins.  ID is not so much the issue (assuming I'm comparing things correctly) but I would appreciate help knowing what I see.  If you do not agree with the ID (or see this as a blatant fake) please do say so.  Are wire fakes a particular problem (are 99% we see real or 99% fake?)?

Ivan IV denga Tver mint:



The coin has three lines of legend so I call it a denga.  Kopecks seem to have four.  Is this a correct observation?

The horseman has a sword so is called only 'horseman' as opposed to the figures of St. George who has a spear.  Yes?

Under the horse is a W.  Does this signify the mint, a moneyer or something else?

As I read the legend, Ivan (line 3) is called 'Great' (Veliki).  What is the first word KHSb?  Is it a variation of Tsar?

Other than the dates of Ivan's reign, is there any narrowing down of dates on this?

Is the mark ~ above the legend meaningful or just decorative?

[Will Hooton]

As I read the legend, Ivan (line 3) is called 'Great' (Veliki).  What is the first word KHSb?  Is it a variation of Tsar?

Doug, I can only confidently answer this question. KHSb is the transliterated old cyrillic word for "Knyaz", or prince.

[wandigeaux (1940 - 2010)]

I really know nothing about these, but Russian orthography a little.  The letter on the obverse seems to be "W", copying the Greek Omega, here a fancy "O".  The line at the top of the reverse inscription indicates an abbreviation, here KNZb for KNJAZ', "Prince" (from the Gothic "kuningaz", or whatever it was, cognate to King in English), with the letter types following Church Slavic, "b" being the letter "jer'," at this late date merely a sign of palatalization of the preceeding consonant and transliterated into the Latin alphabet as '.  The second line here is not "velikii," (definite adjective "the great"), but "velik"(indefinite adjective), whether due to space constraints, or grammatical mistake I don't know, but my impression is  that these almost always have the definite form of the adjective.  Come to think of it, it is odd that the word Knjaz', ends in a jer' (the "soft sign"), while IVAN does not:  it should have the letter jer (the "hard sign" which was abolished in the orthographic reforms after the Revolution).  This would be very, very suspicious in a MS, but on a coin??

By the way, what Ivan is  this supposed to be (I think there were at least four)?  The use of a horseman instead of St. George may indicate that this is not a Muscovite coin per se, but a coin of another authority (e.g., Tver').

And, yes, I have heard that these are frequently faked (the reason I don't have any of these otherwise interesting coins).  I hope this helps more than confuses, George Spradling

[Kost313]

I seek help in understanding Russian wire coins.  ID is not so much the issue (assuming I'm comparing things correctly) but I would appreciate help knowing what I see.  If you do not agree with the ID (or see this as a blatant fake) please do say so.  Are wire fakes a particular problem (are 99% we see real or 99% fake?)? No, fakes are not a common issue, to the contrary old times fakes are considered rarities. Modern counterfeits may be found very seldom at ebay & other garbage sites.

Ivan IV denga Tver mint: correct, one of the most wide-spread ones. post-reform coinage of Ivan The Terrible



The coin has three lines of legend so I call it a denga.  Kopecks seem to have four.  Is this a correct observation? No.
Denga is one half of a Kopeyka. WEight is 50%. and the horseman on denga always has a sable in his hand
The horseman has a sword so is called only 'horseman' as opposed to the figures of St. George who has a spear.  Yes? Horseman with spear may be found only on kopeks ("kopie" means spear and that's the origin of name Kopeyka). Only one variety of kopeyka with horseman w. sable exists in post-Grozny period. Normally it is found on denga.


Under the horse is a W.  Does this signify the mint, a moneyer or something else? No idea

As I read the legend, Ivan (line 3) is called 'Great' (Veliki).  What is the first word KHSb?  Is it a variation of Tsar? KNYAZ -Duke

Other than the dates of Ivan's reign, is there any narrowing down of dates on this?

Is the mark ~ above the legend meaningful or just decorative? ~ is a titlo - shows abbreviation KNYAZ to KNZ

[seryoshka]

The coin has three lines of legend so I call it a denga.  Kopecks seem to have four.  Is this a correct observation?

Well, the number of lines of legend does not differentiate denominations. The HORSEMAN does. Look at these two dengas of Moscow mint (fig1 & fig2). BTW most of wire kopecks have 5-6 lines of letters.


Before the reform of coinage in 1535 a tremendous number of all types of feudal coins (often clipped) from Moscow, Tver, Novgorod and Pskov were legal tender. In 1535 their circulation was prohibited. Instead, a coin with a horseman holding a sword (well, a saber to be exact) on obv. and with an inscription (name & title) on rev. began being minted in Moscow and Tver. This light coin weighed 0,34 g and it was called DENGA OF MOSCOW (here DENGA had exactly the same meaning as MONETA in European coinage) or just MOSCOVKA (the most common name of this coin in the time of Ivan IV the Terrible). Sometimes it was nicknamed SABEL’KA (“sablya” in Russian means “saber”) from its horseman.

 In Novgorod and Pskov heavier coins of the very same type were minted. By tradition they had a double weight of Moscow’s dengas (0,68 g) and their horseman had a SPEAR instead of a saber to distinguish this weight (fig3). These coins were called … DENGAs OF NOVGOROD or NOVGORODKAs for short. People nicknamed this new reformed coin a KOPECK (Russians pronounce “Kopeika”, “kopio” means “spear”).

Eventually the term SABEL’KA was dropped form conversation and a term DENGA was preferred and soon gained the fixed meaning “half a kopeck”. Just the other way, a KOPECK lived through centuries into the present days and a word NOVGORODKA was forgotten. A plural of “denga” which sounds “dengi” in Russian now means (and always meant) “money”.

[seryoshka]

The horseman has a sword so is called only 'horseman' as opposed to the figures of St. George who has a spear.  Yes?

St.George spearing a Serpent appeared on Russian coins in 1757-1796 (fig.4) and then only on modern coins (fig.5).

On WIRE coins (1535-1717) a horseman holding either a sword (saber) or a spear represens Russian tsar. Right after Ivan IV the Terrible proclaimed himself a tsar in 1547, he hurried to engrave on his coins his new highest title AND added a tsar’s crown to his horseman portrait.
Here are some later portraits.
A kopeck of Fyodor Ivanovich (1584-1598) (fig.6)
A kopeck of Boris Fyodorovich (1598-1605) (“B” stands for “Boris”, “O” for “Ospodar”, i.e. autocrator) (fig.7)
A kopeck of Mikhail Fyodorovich (1613-1645) (“K” stands for “Knyaz”, i.e. duke, a Cyrillic letter “4” for “Tsar”). (fig.

[seryoshka]

As I read the legend, Ivan (line 3) is called 'Great' (Veliki).  What is the first word KHSb?  Is it a variation of Tsar?

The inscription reads “Ivan, the Grand Duke”, not “Ivan the Great, Duke”

[seryoshka]

Other than the dates of Ivan's reign, is there any narrowing down of dates on this?

The coin was struck after the reform of 1535 and before 1547 when Ivan IV the Terrible proclaimed himself a tsar (There’s no “tsar” title on this coin).


Pardon for my English