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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 160711 times)

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Offline okidoki

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #525 on: August 11, 2015, 04:50:43 am »
It is tooled. But it might also be a cast fake that has been tooled.
hello Areich,

the Drachm i posted?

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Eric
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Offline areich

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #526 on: August 11, 2015, 05:24:48 am »
Quote from: Crispus on August 10, 2015, 09:05:02 pm
What do you all think, tooled or not tooled and your overall opinion of the coin. 

I had this originally posted trying to find out if it was a sestertius or dupondius.  I received my answer on that- sestertius.

Thanks in advance!

Tim

Sorry, I didn't see that there was another page to this thread. I meant this coin.

The drachm looks fine to me.
Andreas Reich

Offline Joe Sermarini

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #527 on: August 11, 2015, 07:07:47 am »
If you are asking IF a coin is tooled, it should be in a separate thread.  This thread should be for posting photos of coins you are confident are tooled.
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Offline okidoki

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #528 on: August 20, 2015, 02:21:07 pm »
Diameter: 33 mm

Weight  : 20,9 g
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Eric
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Offline paparoupa

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #529 on: October 26, 2015, 09:14:58 am »
In a french platform shop. Owl's down feathers are engraved

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #530 on: October 27, 2015, 05:58:38 pm »
I suppose my post is out of place here among all these attempts to raise the grade of worn out coins but tooling can beused to upgrade even to something that does not exist. 

I believe Zenobia started out as a Flavian as with Spes reverse.  I could not refuse it and would love to know if anyone ever bought it really thinking it was Zenobia.

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #531 on: October 27, 2015, 06:03:52 pm »
If my last one was bad, this is worse.  This photo was sent to me 45 years ago by a person I have forgotten.  I seem to have lost the reverse.  In case anyone misses the point here, there are no Roman denomination bronzes of Pescennius Niger so this does not need further work to be the best known.


Offline okidoki

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #532 on: January 28, 2016, 01:31:31 pm »
Hadrian on sale no mention of tooling
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Offline maridvnvm

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #533 on: January 29, 2016, 04:55:39 am »
Look at poor Diocletian...

Offline Molinari

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #534 on: January 29, 2016, 07:01:35 am »
Wow.  That's one of the worst examples I've seen in a while.  Who on earth would think it's a good idea to do that to an ancient artifact?  Only a real you-know-what!

Offline dougsmit

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #535 on: January 29, 2016, 08:58:34 am »
Is it inappropriate to ask if tooling is becoming more acceptable in some places than others?  When I see badly tooled coins they seem to be more often from certain countries.  My eyes are offended by this sort of thing but the number of examples we see suggests it does not bother everyone.   

Offline Molinari

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #536 on: January 29, 2016, 09:16:44 am »
I don't know if it is more acceptable in other countries or not.  I think it is inexperienced buyers who see a big name firm and assume things are legit. 

The Greek coins from this seller had been getting slightly better over the last year or so- not as many horribly tooled coins and often times perfectly normal coins would be listed as "smoothed and tooled" (I assume it is the same seller of this present Roman coin).

Offline okidoki

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #537 on: January 29, 2016, 09:25:59 am »
I mailed to the auction house with those 2 Hadrian's, i mailed them
"An auction house should not post them for sale or at least text tooled or smoothed coins"

i did not receive any response.  :( 
All the Best,
Eric
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #538 on: January 29, 2016, 10:22:19 am »
Is it inappropriate to ask if tooling is becoming more acceptable in some places than others?  When I see badly tooled coins they seem to be more often from certain countries.  My eyes are offended by this sort of thing but the number of examples we see suggests it does not bother everyone.   

For many years I've been collecting only untooled bronzes and disposing of any I feel might have been tooled, smoothed or overcleaned - and in the case of the first two categories, stating such in sale descriptions. It remains to be seen whether my endeavours will result in better sale prices, or if collectors used to toolies will just think, "not very sharp coins". I feel much the same way about natural old toned silver as against chemically cleaned coins. Many neophyte collectors have got used to collecting chemically cleaned silver. When I come to sell, they may think, "not very minty and a bit dirty". I still feel I must collect coins that have not been interfered with, but whether I get my reward in earthly dollars or in some form of antiquarian nirvana reserved for the purest of collectors, I have no idea.

Offline SC

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #539 on: January 29, 2016, 10:32:37 am »
Hopefully in earthly dollars based on repeat business given your evident honesty and transparency.

Though banking antiquarian nirvana is always a good investment too.

Shawn
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Offline Lee S

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #540 on: January 29, 2016, 11:58:25 am »
But there is a world of difference between a tooled ( and even smoothed ) coin, and an overcleaned coin that has been repatinated / retoned...
    I have in my collection several coins that I have treated for BD, ( and a few that I overcleaned, and even one or two I used electrolysis on as a method of last resort... ::)   ) which had no patina remaining... I have used chemicals to give these coins a more attractive look, but I have not altered or added anything to the original detail of the coin, which I feel is the most important point to consider here.
    I have also cleaned a few coins which had a very thick ( usually green...) patina where I have selectively thinned the patina in the relevant places ( around eyes, lettering etc.) to make the coin as attractive as possible, and I have, to be honest felt a little guilty about the process, even though the results ended up as a much "better" coin.
  In my gallery I usually mention if a coin has been stripped and repatinated, and I would always do so if I was selling a coin, out of honesty and common decency...
   However, IMHO, these practices I have used on my own and the occasional friends coins are a million miles away from removing metal from a coin and then passing it on as original.... Or even as "lightly smoothed" , " lightly tooled" or whatever.... Once you intentionally remove metal you are fundamentally altering the coin, and it will never again be original.
   Just my broad English penny's worth !!
 Have a great weekend guys!

Lee.
 

Offline SC

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #541 on: January 30, 2016, 05:09:01 pm »
I think that you noted the key issue Lee.  Transparency and honesty.

People want to buy a tooled coin, fine.  A re-patinated one, fine.  If all were labelled honestly as such then it would be fine from a consumer's point of view.  Buy what you want, use your own judgement re price variation.

That said, Andrew's question is interesting.  Let's say that there are two Andrew McCabe's in parallel universes.  Andrew alpha lists everything he thinks might have been done to a coin - tooling, smoothing, over-cleaning, re-patination, etc.  Andrew beta simply lists the coins.  What is the difference in prices realized?

Shawn
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Offline Andrew McCabe

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #542 on: January 31, 2016, 12:32:24 am »
I think that you noted the key issue Lee.  Transparency and honesty.

People want to buy a tooled coin, fine.  A re-patinated one, fine.  If all were labelled honestly as such then it would be fine from a consumer's point of view.  Buy what you want, use your own judgement re price variation.

That said, Andrew's question is interesting.  Let's say that there are two Andrew McCabe's in parallel universes.  Andrew alpha lists everything he thinks might have been done to a coin - tooling, smoothing, over-cleaning, re-patination, etc.  Andrew beta simply lists the coins.  What is the difference in prices realized?

Shawn


I'm not sure this Andrew alpha actually reflects me, so I wanted to pull back on expectations. I do NOT list everything that might have happened to a coin. Here is among the defects I would not list

1. Where a coin's surface looks like a moonscape, and the photo shows that clearly, there's nothing to say. Likewise if there's a piece missing from the edge, a big hole, or anything else my 10 year old daughter could point out to me.

2. Where a coin has been inexpertly cleaned resulting in obvious damage to surfaces, and the photo shows that clearly, likewise. This includes cleaning that has attempted to highlight the design and kinda botched it up, cut up the surfaces, removes some patina but not in a pretty way. What can one say? "Ugly coin"? That's for the buyer to assess. (but in contrast if it's the type of cleaning that caused fine surface scratches that are not plainly visible, especially to silver, then that absolutely should be mentioned).

3. Where a coin has been smoothly cleaned to a gloss finish like one smooths a jewel, with a buffed patina. That's how nice bronzes were generally cleaned in olden times, rubbed, and one can for example easily see an old patina aes grave with such surfaces that a modern cleaner wouldn't do. This was a matter of taste and practice. Modern repatination falls into the same bucket. I don't like the latter but many people consider it acceptable.

4. Where a major auction house (NAC, CNG) has already mentioned an interference with a given coin, and I'm reselling it, I'll generally use exactly the same wording, if it was reasonable at the time.

5. I don't grade my own coins for sale, my vendor (Roma) does. The buck stops with me saying to Richard "please mention such and such an issue", and he'll then use his conventional term. "May have been mounted"; "coin appears to be plated" for example.

Buyers have a duty to examine photos and buy on the basis of the photo and any descriptive modifiers. Caveat emptor.

Sellers / consignors duty is to point out issues that may not be obvious from a photo such as a deliberately recut (strengthened) design, i.e. tooling, or where parts of a coins surface has been selectively smoothed with some metal removal in a way such as to highlight the areas that have not been smoothed, or where there has been a repair or a plugged hole or a mended break and such like, or fine surface damage to silver due to abrasive cleaning. Such less visible enhancements that materially affect a coin should be mentioned.

But, with these exceptions excluded, it's otherwise caveat emptor. Know the seller, know your coins, and buy per the photo and description. A well taken photo is in itself transparency. It's only what's not obvious from a photo that really needs explanation.

Offline paparoupa

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #543 on: April 11, 2016, 11:29:57 am »
Ugly tooled lycian stater coming up for sale   ::) :o ;D

Offline okidoki

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #544 on: April 15, 2016, 01:39:12 pm »
Hadrian
already 17 bid and 123 euro it will go up further
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Offline Molinari

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #545 on: May 11, 2016, 09:53:03 am »
Surprised to find this one on a prominent dealer's site (I informed him of the oversight).  Allegedly unpublished.  Some think the coin is an outright fake.  One thing is for sure, this one has been badly tooled.

Offline Molinari

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #546 on: May 18, 2016, 08:13:56 am »
This one is really upsetting, especially since I need the type and would have paid a few hundred for even a really worn specimen.  Now it is utterly worthless.  In fact, it is worse than that, it has negative value.  One's collection becomes worse by containing this coin.

Acheloios will have his revenge. Just look at Sophocles' Trachiniae, in which we witness the excruciatingly painful death of Herakles, who got exactly what he deserved!:

Herakles: "Pallas, ah Pallas, it strikes me again! O child, I beseech you,
pity your father: draw forth your blameless sword from its scabbard:
strike off my head and end the distress..."


Offline okidoki

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #547 on: May 18, 2016, 05:34:27 pm »
on auction now at a renowned auction house, i think they missed it, other coin they write "Heavily smoothed"

Hadrian. AE Sestertius (22.80 g), AD 117-138 VF. Rome, ca. AD 120-122. IMP CAESAR TRAIANVS HADR-IANVS AVG P M TR P COS III, laureate bust of Hadrian right, slight drapery on far shoulder. Reverse: MONETA AVGVSTI, S C across field, Moneta standing facing, head left, holding scales and cornucopiae. RIC 586b. Glossy dark green and brown patina. Very Fine
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Offline Odysseus

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #548 on: May 24, 2016, 07:32:57 pm »
Bronze nach 241 v. Chr. Sizilien VF

Price:   500,00 EUR

Sizilien Bronze nach 241 v. Chr.
Grade: VF Abbreviations
Catalog: Calciati I, S. 384, Em. 7
Bronze nach 241 v. Chr. 8.46 g. Kopf des Herakles / Triskeles mit geflügeltem Medusenhaupt. Calciati I, S. 384, Em. 7 Selten Sehr schön
Sizilien

.......................................................

No comment.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b10310302t

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85998663

Offline okidoki

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Re: Badly Tooled Coins Here
« Reply #549 on: May 25, 2016, 02:54:03 am »
Sestertius Hadrian 117-138 A.D.

The coin is authentic and it dates from the reign of the ruler represented in it.

Material: Bronze

Diameter: 31-33 mm

Weight  : 25,2 g
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Eric
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