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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 85537 times)
areich
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« Reply #350 on: March 17, 2012, 11:02:38 am »

Or maybe it is a giant operation and they use the better pieces for the floor auctions and the junk for Ebay. Most Greek bronzes in the Lanz floor auctions are tooled nowadays.
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« Reply #351 on: March 17, 2012, 12:55:50 pm »

Here is one from which was up on the bay for auction last December. I'm ashamed to say i did bid on it but almost immediately regreted my decision once I looked at it again and noticed how horrible the tooling on the portrait was. When I checked later in the day, I was for the first time (and hopefully last) very happy to have been outbid by somebody else. It is a shame as this is the only Gallienus coin of this type of Pegasus that I've seen up for sale since I've been actively looking.

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areich
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« Reply #352 on: March 17, 2012, 01:59:15 pm »

Tooling can often produce 'one of a kind' type of coins.
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Molinari
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« Reply #353 on: March 17, 2012, 08:44:28 pm »

Tooling can often produce 'one of a kind' type of coins.

Not my Sileraioi bronze (avatar) I hope!

Nick
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #354 on: April 02, 2012, 06:45:49 am »

Three more "enhanced" coins. 

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« Reply #355 on: April 10, 2012, 06:17:42 am »

This one is impressive.  Looks like it was being cleaned with a pick axe and the 'cleaner' decided to add a little detail.

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« Reply #356 on: April 11, 2012, 05:48:01 am »

I was reading through this thread last night and I saw Andreas had mentioned a previous sale had many tooled Greek coins.  Then I looked into the seller's tooled coins further and read some interesting comments of his on a yahoo discussion group thread.  Then I started to freak out a bit.  I have a coin from the aforementioned sale and I'm wondering if it is tooled.  It happens to be my favorite piece and I will be totally devastated if it is, but I'm posting it anyway.

I must say, the lighting makes the coin look slightly sharper than it is.  However, compared to other examples, the obverse of mine is much sharper than any I have seen.

Here is the attribution:

Tetras, 357 - 339, Überprägung einer Bronze-Litra Dionysios' I. (vgl. Calciati II S. 86 N 41). S-ILEPAIW-N(retrograd). Androkephaler Stier nach rechts. Rs: Nackter Krieger mit Schild und Speer nach rechts stürmend, im Feld SIL-A. Campana, CNAI "; Calciati III S. 301 Em. 2/9. 6,86g. Fast vorzüglich/sehr schön.

Perhaps posting it under the "Badly Tooled Coins" thread is not appropriate but I figured you all wouldn't mind.

As always, thanks,

Nick
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #357 on: April 11, 2012, 06:26:55 am »

Tetras, 357 - 339, Überprägung einer Bronze-Litra Dionysios' I. (vgl. Calciati II S. 86 N 41). S-ILEPAIW-N(retrograd). Androkephaler Stier nach rechts. Rs: Nackter Krieger mit Schild und Speer nach rechts stürmend, im Feld SIL-A. Campana, CNAI "; Calciati III S. 301 Em. 2/9. 6,86g. Fast vorzüglich/sehr schön.

Nick

A carefully balanced reply is in order. A few things to consider

1. it is not obviously tooled (as compared with the dozens linked to in the other forum thread you mention). There are a few specific points I wonder about such as the shadow above the reverse arm, and the smooth area with sharp edges associated with the left hand leg on the obverse, and the letter E, but it doesn't jump out

2. there is a very obvious discrepancy between the degree of wear and corrosion and surfaces on the reverse, and that on the obverse, leading to the possibility that one side has been improved and smoothed. Alternately it might be the result of a very damaged reverse die and/or preferential corrosion from whatever place the coin has been lying these past 2,000 years

3. any association with that seller and that sale is clearly bad and there will always be an element of guilt by association even if the coin looks fine

4. it seems to be a rare type, at least I could not locate more than one other which is shown below.
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=532662
 It would be worthwhile to locate others because a comparison with details would show where differences may have been created by tooling. Look at the two examples carefully. There is no obvious addition of different details on the lower coin - which seems to be from the same dies - and the outer circle (a key determinant) is of the same shape. But I would guess that the left-hand leg area of the bull has been improved, and the circle better defined at the outside. This might be the result of vigorous cleaning of course. The obv/rev discrepancy is clearer seeing the two coins but without any definite flags. The lettering has not moved position (another key determinant).

Overall I think your coin might count as smoothed in places - which might be considered the result of careful but vigorous cleaning - but not evidently tooled.

Still, I would be very wary of buying more bronzes from such a source unless you are prepared and experienced to do the analysis above before bidding on each piece.
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« Reply #358 on: April 11, 2012, 07:04:56 am »

Thanks for the detailed reply, Andrew, it is very much appreciated.  I can live with some smoothing and I’m glad it is at least not noticeably tooled to better eyes than mine.

I was most worried about the facial details (beard and eye) because, of the handful of examples I have seen, none come close.  I hadn’t even noticed the leg and arm you mentioned.  But examining others it looks like mine has simply a very nice obverse strike and you seem to have found one I didn't which has a comparable obverse.  I know that on many of the man-faced bull types (bronze and silver) the obverse is almost always in far better condition than the reverse (or vice versa, whichever side has the MFB).  Perhaps the engravers took better care of that side or re-engraved it more often because it is a wide-spread phenomenon.

One thing that has me suspicious is that no one bid on the coin, yet others in noticeably worse condition have sold for about as much, and one I think even more (within the last three or four years anyway).  I hadn’t bought from him before and had no idea of the tooling issue until I started reading this thread.  I knew it was a well respected firm so I didn’t even consider it at the time.  I’m not sure if I would have bought the coin given the emerging reputation had I known it then, but now I’m glad I did because like I said, I can live with some smoothing and it is my absolute favorite piece.

In the future I will be extremely careful when dealing with this firm.  It’s a shame to have to worry so much because man-faced bull types are my favorite and he seems to have the most on the market throughout the year.

Thanks again,

Nick
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #359 on: April 11, 2012, 07:58:38 am »

I'm really not sure what I'm looking at here. Modern? Tooled ancient silver? Ideas pleaase.
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« Reply #360 on: April 11, 2012, 08:07:41 am »

It does have a modern look, to me anyway.

Nick
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« Reply #361 on: April 13, 2012, 04:20:39 pm »

This one is impressive.  Looks like it was being cleaned with a pick axe and the 'cleaner' decided to add a little detail.



lol I like the added headband!
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #362 on: April 13, 2012, 09:38:38 pm »

It does have a modern look, to me anyway.

Nick

You are right Nick. It's a modern forgery with some reverse tooling / damage.
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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #363 on: April 17, 2012, 12:36:47 am »

Oh my Zeus! ....coming to a German auction in early May.   The Germans really seem to be working hard to produce this stuff and now appear to be moving into silver, having honed their artistic "Dremel skills" on bronze slugs. It not much consolation that in this case they left the reverse well enough alone having destroyed the obverse.
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #364 on: April 30, 2012, 06:23:38 am »

These eyes don't lie...tooled!
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« Reply #365 on: May 01, 2012, 10:21:44 pm »

I've long wondered who buys the Lanz toolies, and what would happen when the owners try to sell again. Here's such a coin, relisted by a different seller, one who is so proud of its newly carved detail that he enlarges the photo so we can all see the chisel marks!
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« Reply #366 on: May 09, 2012, 09:06:50 pm »

I would like to put my two cents in on this thread and coin a term for some of the brutally tooled slugs seen on page 16: Hobo bronzes.
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« Reply #367 on: May 10, 2012, 09:03:02 am »

Hi All!

Just stumbled across this one on *bay.

The obverse hair, at least, seems to be tooled, right?

Seller, who is in Budapest, "guaranteed to the original."

mz
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #368 on: May 10, 2012, 09:23:38 am »

Hi All!

Just stumbled across this one on *bay.

The obverse hair, at least, seems to be tooled, right?

Seller, who is in Budapest, "guaranteed to the original."

mz

The prior tooly on this thread, posted by me, was from the Budapest seller but originated in a ebay sale of a notorious German seller of tooled coins i.e. the usual source. This might also be an ex-L coin. Not as terrible as some of course

PS I must add that the reselling of tooled coins sold by that previously respected German seller can hardly be a cause for us to complain about the Budapest reseller. This is the sort of havoc that trickles down to the lower levels of the coin market when a member of the Intenational Assoication of Professional Numismatists sells truckloads of badly tooled coins. The consequences will follow for years to come.
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HELEN S
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« Reply #369 on: May 18, 2012, 11:43:58 am »

 

 i find this thread enthralling i am trying to look at the problems, your descriptions and realize that you all must have a lifetime of knowledge WOW what a vast amount of problems happening out there in the coin world thankyou for your great work  i hope everyone on the site appreciates you     
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #370 on: May 29, 2012, 05:59:00 am »

Latest abomination:

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« Reply #371 on: June 13, 2012, 06:05:10 am »

Interesting re-patination too.
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« Reply #372 on: June 13, 2012, 06:30:09 am »

I don't see any tooling on this last bronze, however.
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« Reply #373 on: June 13, 2012, 07:49:24 am »

Or repatination. Patina looks completely original.
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Molinari
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« Reply #374 on: June 13, 2012, 08:20:00 am »

Bottom right of the reverse might have been smoothed a little, unless the small markings I see are just the coin's original surface. 
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