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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 59974 times)
Randygeki(h2)
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« Reply #375 on: February 15, 2012, 05:22:58 pm »

Described as "lightly tooled". Yuck.

LOL Thats awesome
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #376 on: February 22, 2012, 06:11:00 am »

A fearsome foursome for all to enjoy:

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« Reply #377 on: February 22, 2012, 09:21:02 am »

There certainly seems to be a tooling production line of the Janus faces and Medusa Heads running somewhere! All thoroughly horrid.
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« Reply #378 on: February 22, 2012, 12:46:06 pm »

The tooled Janus types may have been tooled into complete slugs or even completely modern blank cast flans.
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« Reply #379 on: February 22, 2012, 01:12:02 pm »

I think that a change in vocabulary is in order. These coins should be named 'modern fake' in stead of ´tooled´. Only the flans are authentic. How is this, method aside, any different than slugs overstruck with modern forged dies?
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Gert

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Lloyd Taylor
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« Reply #380 on: February 25, 2012, 04:23:56 pm »

I think that a change in vocabulary is in order. These coins should be named 'modern fake' in stead of ´tooled´. Only the flans are authentic. How is this, method aside, any different than slugs overstruck with modern forged dies?

Agree. To consider them in any way authentic is certainly pushing the line between authenticity and fakery far too much towards the latter .  We have struck fakes, we have cast fakes, now we have tooled fakes.

Add them here.. http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/thumbnails.php?album=23
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #381 on: March 02, 2012, 05:16:24 am »

This one is offered as "tooled, smoothed and repatinated" and is currently north of $400.   Undecided

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Frans Diederik
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« Reply #382 on: March 02, 2012, 11:47:16 am »

I have seen this engraver several times now and to the untrained eye the coins look nice, but areas that are worn flat, such as the arm, he cannot get sufficient rounding and that makes it bad tooling from two perspectives.... I suppose the coin was rather nice before he laid his tools on it.


Frans
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #383 on: March 02, 2012, 12:22:05 pm »

I suppose the coin was rather nice before he laid his tools on it.

Unfortunately that often seems to be the case. Of the four RR asses cited by Ghengis Jon,

A fearsome foursome for all to enjoy:

the fourth of these had a quite nice (and actually untooled) and scarce reverse type - RRC 106/4 from Etruria with a club design. Had they left the coin alone, irrespective how bad the obverse was, it would have sold nicely on its reverse alone. Because they tooled and destroyed the obverse it's now worthless as a study object to anyone.
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Frans Diederik
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« Reply #384 on: March 02, 2012, 01:18:03 pm »

In our hobby ignorance is no bliss.......
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marcvs_traianvs
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« Reply #385 on: March 02, 2012, 04:15:02 pm »

This one is offered as "tooled, smoothed and repatinated" and is currently north of $400.   Undecided



I like the addition of the "otherwise extremely fine".  No...the only reason that coin looks like that is that its been completely altered.  And CAPPADOCIA reverses are scarce enough that an unaltered coin will bring you money. Annoying to say the least.

But as long as people keep spending money for coins to be damaged, its going to keep happening.
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #386 on: March 04, 2012, 06:36:33 am »

Now currently north of 400 EURO with no end in sight.  I wish I had 'stupid money' that I could spend stupidly.

Trouble is, this kind of bidding will only encourage other toolers.  When ravaged coins command this kind of cash, I fear we'll see an influx of needlessly tooled coins.  <sigh>
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« Reply #387 on: March 06, 2012, 05:24:08 am »

Like this one, currently in excess of €500.  Why can't people leave well enough alone?  I doubt that collectors are saying "oooo, I'll give you only half as much because its not tooled, smoothed and re-patinated."

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« Reply #388 on: March 06, 2012, 07:53:53 am »

You should make that offer to one of these sellers Smiley
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« Reply #389 on: March 17, 2012, 04:13:22 am »

speechless
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Frans Diederik
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« Reply #390 on: March 17, 2012, 10:45:11 am »

I m h o definite proof that Neanderthal not only knew the use of money, but also that they still exist Undecided


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« Reply #391 on: March 17, 2012, 10:56:12 am »

speechless

It's like they're not even trying anymore!

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« Reply #392 on: March 17, 2012, 11:02:38 am »

Or maybe it is a giant operation and they use the better pieces for the floor auctions and the junk for Ebay. Most Greek bronzes in the Lanz floor auctions are tooled nowadays.
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« Reply #393 on: March 17, 2012, 12:55:50 pm »

Here is one from which was up on the bay for auction last December. I'm ashamed to say i did bid on it but almost immediately regreted my decision once I looked at it again and noticed how horrible the tooling on the portrait was. When I checked later in the day, I was for the first time (and hopefully last) very happy to have been outbid by somebody else. It is a shame as this is the only Gallienus coin of this type of Pegasus that I've seen up for sale since I've been actively looking.

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« Reply #394 on: March 17, 2012, 01:59:15 pm »

Tooling can often produce 'one of a kind' type of coins.
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« Reply #395 on: March 17, 2012, 08:44:28 pm »

Tooling can often produce 'one of a kind' type of coins.

Not my Sileraioi bronze (avatar) I hope!

Nick
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Ghengis Jon
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« Reply #396 on: April 02, 2012, 06:45:49 am »

Three more "enhanced" coins. 

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« Reply #397 on: April 10, 2012, 06:17:42 am »

This one is impressive.  Looks like it was being cleaned with a pick axe and the 'cleaner' decided to add a little detail.

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« Reply #398 on: April 11, 2012, 05:48:01 am »

I was reading through this thread last night and I saw Andreas had mentioned a previous sale had many tooled Greek coins.  Then I looked into the seller's tooled coins further and read some interesting comments of his on a yahoo discussion group thread.  Then I started to freak out a bit.  I have a coin from the aforementioned sale and I'm wondering if it is tooled.  It happens to be my favorite piece and I will be totally devastated if it is, but I'm posting it anyway.

I must say, the lighting makes the coin look slightly sharper than it is.  However, compared to other examples, the obverse of mine is much sharper than any I have seen.

Here is the attribution:

Tetras, 357 - 339, Überprägung einer Bronze-Litra Dionysios' I. (vgl. Calciati II S. 86 N 41). S-ILEPAIW-N(retrograd). Androkephaler Stier nach rechts. Rs: Nackter Krieger mit Schild und Speer nach rechts stürmend, im Feld SIL-A. Campana, CNAI "; Calciati III S. 301 Em. 2/9. 6,86g. Fast vorzüglich/sehr schön.

Perhaps posting it under the "Badly Tooled Coins" thread is not appropriate but I figured you all wouldn't mind.

As always, thanks,

Nick
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Andrew McCabe
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« Reply #399 on: April 11, 2012, 06:26:55 am »

Tetras, 357 - 339, Überprägung einer Bronze-Litra Dionysios' I. (vgl. Calciati II S. 86 N 41). S-ILEPAIW-N(retrograd). Androkephaler Stier nach rechts. Rs: Nackter Krieger mit Schild und Speer nach rechts stürmend, im Feld SIL-A. Campana, CNAI "; Calciati III S. 301 Em. 2/9. 6,86g. Fast vorzüglich/sehr schön.

Nick

A carefully balanced reply is in order. A few things to consider

1. it is not obviously tooled (as compared with the dozens linked to in the other forum thread you mention). There are a few specific points I wonder about such as the shadow above the reverse arm, and the smooth area with sharp edges associated with the left hand leg on the obverse, and the letter E, but it doesn't jump out

2. there is a very obvious discrepancy between the degree of wear and corrosion and surfaces on the reverse, and that on the obverse, leading to the possibility that one side has been improved and smoothed. Alternately it might be the result of a very damaged reverse die and/or preferential corrosion from whatever place the coin has been lying these past 2,000 years

3. any association with that seller and that sale is clearly bad and there will always be an element of guilt by association even if the coin looks fine

4. it seems to be a rare type, at least I could not locate more than one other which is shown below.
http://www.acsearch.info/record.html?id=532662
 It would be worthwhile to locate others because a comparison with details would show where differences may have been created by tooling. Look at the two examples carefully. There is no obvious addition of different details on the lower coin - which seems to be from the same dies - and the outer circle (a key determinant) is of the same shape. But I would guess that the left-hand leg area of the bull has been improved, and the circle better defined at the outside. This might be the result of vigorous cleaning of course. The obv/rev discrepancy is clearer seeing the two coins but without any definite flags. The lettering has not moved position (another key determinant).

Overall I think your coin might count as smoothed in places - which might be considered the result of careful but vigorous cleaning - but not evidently tooled.

Still, I would be very wary of buying more bronzes from such a source unless you are prepared and experienced to do the analysis above before bidding on each piece.
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FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Numismatic and History Discussions  |  Ancient Coin Forum (Moderator: goldenancients)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here « previous next »
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