Classical Numismatics Discussion
  Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Please look at the RECENT ADDITIONS and PRICE REDUCTIONS at the top and bottom of the page. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES! Welcome Guest. Please login or register. Point your mouse to a coin in RECENT ADDITIONS or PRICE REDUCTIONS on this page to see the the price. All items are guaranteed authentic for eternity! Thanks for supporting Forum with your PURCHASES!


FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 16 17 18 ... 25 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here  (Read 110302 times)
areich
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8810



WWW
« Reply #300 on: December 06, 2011, 03:19:22 pm »

It has been said that they come from Italy and noted how close they are in style to aitnacoins' Ebay offers. I haven't studied them closely enough to be sure, because to be honest, it would be a very unpleasant task to do so.

Unfortunately, even though some of the other big firms note tooling whenever they notice it, the fact that these tooled coins are sold at all, sometimes in large numbers, may make them more acceptable to collectors and thus lead to more tooled coins. I don't know what kind of collector these people are that see a tooled coin, no incredible rarity that would not be available untooled, and bid anyway, often hundreds or thousands of dollars.
Logged

Dk0311USMC
Conservator
Consul
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 359



WWW
« Reply #301 on: December 06, 2011, 03:44:19 pm »

Sometimes there seems to be a fine line with tooling.   I like to clean various uncleaned coins and sometimes if the coin has a soft patina, its hard not to accidentally tool it a little bit when removing dirt from grooves, and around details.  I don't think really any of my coins become obviously tooled but some examples on here are very borderline, possibly as a result of someone trying to clean dirt out of details, and others intentionally recreating their own details.  I wouldn't try to resell a coin that I feel ended up with artificial details. 

On some coins for my own collection I will wax them, and I have found on some that I will selectively wax areas of the bust for example, or other details to help them pop to the eye a bit more.  But like I said that is just something I do for my own collection sometimes. If it doesn't work out then I can just put an even coat across the whole coin or work on removing the wax.  An example of that is on my Pontius Pilate coin below.

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-70456
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4760



WWW
« Reply #302 on: December 06, 2011, 04:07:23 pm »

It has been said that they come from Italy and noted how close they are in style to aitnacoins' Ebay offers. I haven't studied them closely enough to be sure, because to be honest, it would be a very unpleasant task to do so.

Unfortunately, even though some of the other big firms note tooling whenever they notice it, the fact that these tooled coins are sold at all, sometimes in large numbers, may make them more acceptable to collectors and thus lead to more tooled coins. I don't know what kind of collector these people are that see a tooled coin, no incredible rarity that would not be available untooled, and bid anyway, often hundreds or thousands of dollars.

There was also a huge number of tooled coins at a recent high-end Italian auction. I'm just amazed they passed ordinary inspection.

You are probably aware that I made a "big deal" about the huge number of tooled and badly altered coins used as illustrations in Rainer Albert's book on Republican coins (the most recent edition), and I also posted on German lists about that book. Some of the replies I received suggested that no one cares - readers who said they were happy to have a German language book even with some mistakes. Well, from recollection, about 75 of the illustrated coins were either forgeries or tooled. I think that made the book useless. A collection full of tooled coins is equally useless, because you no longer know which coins to trust.

The moral for the ordinary collector is: do NOT buy tooled coins. It completely destroys the credibility, interest of, and saleability of your collection, because for every 1 tooled coin someone sees, they will presume there are another 10 tooled coins hidden where they cannot detect the tooling.
Logged

mwilson603
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1246


« Reply #303 on: December 06, 2011, 05:17:37 pm »

The dealer has a many-decade-long positive reputation and is an expert and respected numismatist who is known for selling good quality always-genuine coins and to reacting immediately and positively to any issue with a purchaser. It appears he is now selling a group of genuine but tooled coins. I think this is crazy but not malevolent. In the related ebay sales he has generally described the coins as tooled. There is also a grey area of coins which seem to be lightly tooled but not marked as such, and it appears the other dealer mentioned on this thread is selling similar pieces. Remember the criterion for NFSL is that there be unquestionable and deliberate deception.

In many different markets, i.e. not just coins, once a business starts moving down the road of cutting corners, and maybe misleading customers, it is rare that they return to the right path.  Unfortunately profit margins mean more to some people than integrity.  I am not categorically saying that this is the case in this instance, however I have heard this name mentioned a few times recently, and unfortunately usually in association with bad practices.  If they are unwittingly doing it then surely they should never had earned such a great reputation if their knowledge is so poor, and if they are doing it malevolently then they deserve to be on the list.
Obviously, if they revert back to the style of business that gained them this supposed superb reputation, then of course leeway should be given, and the question marks disappear.  However, surely if they continue with these practices, then at some point the end result of what they are doing has to be taken into account, and "collectors" who know no different should be able to find a clear warning about them.
regards
Mark
Logged
Lloyd Taylor
Guest
« Reply #304 on: December 06, 2011, 08:42:00 pm »

Peddling large numbers of tooled coins... but another example of poor judgement which the formerly respected principal of this auction house seems to be exhibiting with increasing frequency in old age. The profit imperative now appears to override sound judgement  and reputation is on a slippery slope as a result.
Logged
areich
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8810



WWW
« Reply #305 on: December 07, 2011, 04:19:06 am »

The business model is that the only employee is a secretary and coins on Ebay are described and listed by a number of different people who receive a percentage of their coins' price realized. It doesn't pay to be too honest and it isn't really necessary to own or consult real books when you can just copy and paste from the internet. Some are better (as in knowledgable and honest) at it than others though I suspect these are not necessarily the most successful.

I'm not sure who does the real auctions but it's probably one or more of the same people. Sadly, collectors who are informed about these things seem to be in a minority and if you're not online and can't see these things for yourself there is no reason to ever doubt the integrity of these auction houses with good names and a long history. The fact that the people who earned the reputations that these houses are using up are spinning in their graves apparently has no effect on their descendents or in some cases on the people who bought the name.

Logged

Ghengis Jon
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #306 on: December 23, 2011, 04:35:19 pm »

Merry Christmas from a Medusa that suddenly got uglier...

Logged

Don't buy uncleaneds from ebay's ancientcoinman - 70% slugs and NO returns!
Ghengis Jon
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #307 on: January 01, 2012, 10:14:34 am »

Just plain fugly...

Logged

Don't buy uncleaneds from ebay's ancientcoinman - 70% slugs and NO returns!
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4760



WWW
« Reply #308 on: January 01, 2012, 10:29:24 am »

Just plain fugly...

Yes. I'm guessing this is a Lanz tooling. They seem to process them through a mince-meat machine, producing a recognizably fugly style. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fugly
Logged

Lloyd Taylor
Guest
« Reply #309 on: January 01, 2012, 05:30:08 pm »

Just plain fugly...

Yes. I'm guessing this is a Lanz tooling. They seem to process them through a mince-meat machine, producing a recognizably fugly style. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fugly

I just wonder who buys this crap? Yet another of life's mysteries!

There must be demand, because the garbage keeps on coming, but who and where are the buyers who must exist in significant numbers to support the machine that churns out these tooled monstrosities? Imagine what the rest of their life must be like if they think this garbage is good stuff!  I know it sounds arrogant (and feel free to call me such), but my mind boggles at the thought of such indiscriminate taste and and an intellect that believes this stuff is in any sense authentic.
Logged
Will Hooton
Comitia Curiata II
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1029


SUSPIRIUM PUELLAM GULIELMUS THRAEX!


« Reply #310 on: January 02, 2012, 02:42:46 am »

I just wonder who buys this crap? Yet another of life's mysteries!

There must be demand, because the garbage keeps on coming, but who and where are the buyers who must exist in significant numbers to support the machine that churns out these tooled monstrosities? Imagine what the rest of their life must be like if they think this garbage is good stuff!  I know it sounds arrogant (and feel free to call me such), but my mind boggles at the thought of such indiscriminate taste and and an intellect that believes this stuff is in any sense authentic.


No Lloyd, you are not arrogant. I don't think it's a question of taste in general but because most people don't know any better. Perhaps they don't see the tooling. There are so many people with little understanding of their own hobby.  This is why FORVM is an absolute blessing.

Then again there are people who don't mind the tooling, and dealers that cater to them buy selling tooled coins with the declaration that they are tooled. And some are still quite expensive. Why would people knowingly buy a tooled coin? I don't get that. A tooled coin would never have a place in my collection. I might use it to see how many skips I could get out of it over the surface of a lake.......
Logged

Reid Goldsborough
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 633



WWW
« Reply #311 on: January 02, 2012, 08:20:53 am »

This to me isn't all that difficult to understand. These particular coins are simply targeted toward relative newcomers, those without the experience and sophistication to know better. That creating these and selling them as they are is a violation of the norms of the numismatic community doesn't seem to matter to those creating and selling them. It's all about, well, money.

Doing this is no different in kind than making up stories about a coin's history or provenance, which at least one well-known dealer, that I know of anyway, has a reputation for doing. I once again feel obligated, for the sake of fairness and accuracy, to say that I don't believe that all or most or even many ancient coin dealers engage in such behavior. Just that some do. From this perspective, spotting such actions ... and gaining the knowledge to do so ... is part of the fun of being a collector.
Logged

oldestcoins.reidgold.com
athenianowlcoins.reidgold.com
alexanderthegreatcoins.reidgold.com
medusacoins.reidgold.com
thracecoins.reidgold.com
Ghengis Jon
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #312 on: January 05, 2012, 07:24:55 am »

Another assault and battery perpetrated upon an ancient coin.

Logged

Don't buy uncleaneds from ebay's ancientcoinman - 70% slugs and NO returns!
areich
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8810



WWW
« Reply #313 on: January 05, 2012, 07:35:11 am »

For these reasons the word 'lanzed' has been suggested to describe these coins.
Logged

byzcoll
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 604


« Reply #314 on: January 05, 2012, 11:27:15 am »

Hi,

I have bought a few Byzantine AE pieces from that seller via Fbay, none of themwere tooled. He has definitely failed to label a number tool-destroyed coins as such, but normally the coins are labelled as tooled and smoothed.

It is just amazing that these essentially destroyed pieces, which just represent a synthetic fantasy encarved on an ancient lump of bronze, are fetching such high sums. Obviously a lot of people like these pieces which cannot even be called coins anymore OR a lot of people try to resell them fraudulently. The latter possibility represents the real problem for me.

The other problem is that the number of badly tooled coins which are up for auction at a given auction house without the tooling being declared probably gives a clue to the number of unrecognized fake coins in these auctions.

byzcoll
Logged
Ghengis Jon
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #315 on: January 09, 2012, 07:19:13 am »

Flattened and gouged, er, smoothed and tooled.
Logged

Don't buy uncleaneds from ebay's ancientcoinman - 70% slugs and NO returns!
Randygeki(h2)
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2238


:D


WWW
« Reply #316 on: January 09, 2012, 10:39:50 am »

 Sad
Logged

Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4760



WWW
« Reply #317 on: January 17, 2012, 03:45:56 pm »

Cartoon and an untooled comparison example below.

The cartoon is from the usual source (the nice example is my coin). Quite apart from the wonderful nose (rather looks like the dwarves in Snow White) the managed to alter the shape of the prowstem to something that never would appear on a Republican coin.

Condition described as Very Fine, tooled.
Logged

Lloyd Taylor
Guest
« Reply #318 on: January 17, 2012, 04:52:51 pm »

Condition described as Very Fine, tooled.
.... which is I guess better than describing it as very finely tooled!
Logged
Ghengis Jon
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #319 on: January 18, 2012, 06:49:38 am »

Ugh.
Logged

Don't buy uncleaneds from ebay's ancientcoinman - 70% slugs and NO returns!
Ghengis Jon
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 663



« Reply #320 on: February 05, 2012, 03:47:51 pm »

A centerpiece for any advanced collection...
Logged

Don't buy uncleaneds from ebay's ancientcoinman - 70% slugs and NO returns!
Aarmale
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1547


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #321 on: February 05, 2012, 04:00:54 pm »

Awful.  Another coin ruined.
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פילפלתא חריפתא ממלי צנא קרי
Andrew McCabe
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4760



WWW
« Reply #322 on: February 08, 2012, 02:58:48 pm »

I have no idea what this is supposed to be. It does not resemble any real coin type.
Logged

areich
Tribunus Plebis Perpetuus
Procurator Monetae
Caesar
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8810



WWW
« Reply #323 on: February 08, 2012, 03:20:47 pm »

There will still be idiots fighting for it. I really wouldn't mind it so much if most of these hadn't started out as genuine ancient coins.
Logged

Aarmale
Procurator Caesaris
Caesar
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1547


Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati


« Reply #324 on: February 08, 2012, 05:54:51 pm »

I have no idea what this is supposed to be. It does not resemble any real coin type.

This one is particularly terrible.  Those faces are awful.
Logged

Gallery: http://tinyurl.com/aarmale
היינו דאמרי אינשי: טבא חדא פילפלתא חריפתא ממלי צנא קרי
Pages: 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 16 17 18 ... 25 Go Up Print 
FORVM`s Classical Numismatics Discussion Board  |  Resources  |  Fake Coin Reports, Notorious Fake Sellers, and Discussions (Moderators: maridvnvm, Ilya Prokopov)  |  Topic: Badly Tooled Coins Here « previous next »
Jump to:  

Recent Price Reductions in Forum's Shop


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 1.482 seconds with 70 queries.